Live from the Lincoln Theatre (with Chuck Todd)

Air date: 11/21/18

Preet Bharara:

Ladies and gentlemen, Chuck Todd.

Chuck Todd:

I have to say, this is like, you’re a rock star, man. You’ve got a sold out auditorium. You got handlers. He’s got groupies in the back. This is… Man, Trump has created quite the universe for us, hasn’t he?

Preet Bharara:

Hi Chuck.

Chuck Todd:

Hi Preet.

Preet Bharara:

So why don’t we start with this. Blue wave?

Chuck Todd:

Elis Jordan who is on MSNBC as a regular analyst, I’m going to give her credit for this, she called it a blue tornado. And I thought it was brilliant. Because in spots it was. In suburban America, this was a wave, up and down the ballot. It’s not just congressional races it is local city council, its state reps, it’s all that. But it was in pockets, right, it was a series of blue tornadoes that basically hit suburban America, whether it was in Virginia Beach, Oklahoma City, Seattle, Washington, Orange County, California, Miami, where I grew up.

Chuck Todd:

If there was a suburb in America that had a college-educated electorate over the national average, I think we’re down to something like three or four seats total where Republicans are still holding seats that are above the national average on education, so it’s somewhat realignment, it’s not a full wave. I struggle calling this a democratic way when they lose Ohio governor, lose Iowa governor, don’t win Indiana, don’t win Missouri.

Chuck Todd:

Previous waves that I’ve covered included where you have Democrats winning in Republican territory or the Republicans winning in democratic territory. In this case it wasn’t fully that. And that’s the other reason why this wasn’t a full fledged wave, is the other unique description of most political waves is one party’s up, and the other party’s demoralized.

Chuck Todd:

In this case, the Republicans weren’t demoralized, they got out too, but the blue tornadoes in the suburbs helped create, I think, at least on the House side, the feel of a wave that I think is more durable, which is why I think it’s a realignment.

Preet Bharara:

I mean, not only were not demoralized in the sense, but their leader, who I believe to be Donald Trump, declared victory.

Chuck Todd:

He did. I think he’s-

Preet Bharara:

How inconsistent with reality is that declaration?

Chuck Todd:

He was going to declare victory under any circumstance.

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

It’s his great gift. No, it’s a gift. It’s a two dimensional facade and he’ll swear it’s a three dimensional building, and he’ll sell it to you that way. But you got to give him credit, he got us people out. He did something Obama couldn’t do in two midterms. He got his people out.

Preet Bharara:

Do you think, and people have talked about this back and forth, and I don’t know if your view changed from the time of the hearing, to the election, to now, some days later, when you’ve had a chance to look at the returns and the exit polls, the Kavanaugh hearing politically, and obviously people care about it because it’s the court and it’s life tenure.

Chuck Todd:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

But as a political matter, that horrifying train wreck of a hearing, the second hearing helped whom?

Chuck Todd:

By the way, I thought the first hearing was also… I know it was didn’t have the loud, but there it was a poor excuse for a set of questions, but we can-

Preet Bharara:

I agree.

Chuck Todd:

I’m sorry, and it was very frustrating. I just, as somebody who does ask questions for a living, to see how unprepared United States senators are to ask basic questions and follow ups, is very frustrating.

Preet Bharara:

As someone who also ask questions for a living.

Chuck Todd:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

I agree.

Chuck Todd:

You come out of your skin about it you just get so… Claire McCaskill will tell you point blank the only reason she lost is Brett Kavanaugh. I don’t know if that’s true, I have a theory that what Kavanaugh did was accelerate Republican interest in the election two weeks earlier than it already would have been.

Chuck Todd:

What Kavanaugh did the caravan continued, right, as far as Trump’s use of it as a rallying cry. I have no doubt, know what Kavanaugh did do was unite the party in a way that they hadn’t been united in a long time. Right, and you have Lindsey Graham, you had rank and file Republicans upset at how Kavanaugh was treated.

Chuck Todd:

And so, that did sort of unify official Washington’s Republican party a little bit, but I believe that this same, quote, enthusiasm, I don’t think Kavanaugh had the impact because I think these voters were coming out anyway. I just think it’s sped up their… They popped in the polls sooner than it would have popped.

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

It would have been two weeks later.

Preet Bharara:

Although so let me ask you one counterfactual question. It seems like Republicans were sort of demoralized going into the midterms and then the Kavanaugh thing happened. Do you think that the world would be different, in connection with the blue wave, or the blue tornadoes, or tsunamis, whatever weather-

Chuck Todd:

The bad weather metaphor.

Preet Bharara:

… we’re talking about. If Kavanaugh had been defeated, or was forced, to withdraw my non-political expertise thought is that would have turned out Republicans and conservatives in much higher numbers out of anger and would have depressed progressives and Democrats a little bit because they a little bit got what they wanted. Is that stupid?

Chuck Todd:

So, Here’s the thing, It’s a very logical thought because if you actually go back to 2016. I’ve always believed if you just changed one fact in 2016, if you went back and the Delorean, and Antonin Scalia lived, and he was alive on Election Day 2016, Trump doesn’t win. I believe it’s the only thing that matters at the end-

Preet Bharara:

Because the courts mattered so much.

Chuck Todd:

The courts mattered so much. It was the easy way to get your hold your nose Republican voter for Trump. I start with that premise to say this. So I understand why you believe that. I didn’t talk to a single Republican strategist, every republican that was in the field said if they gave up on Kavanaugh over this it would have demoralized the Trump base.

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

Because you didn’t fight. What Trump has conditioned his base to embrace is the fight. The fights with the press, or the fights with the Democrats, or the fights with France, or the fights with the Mexicans. It’s the fight.

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

I’m like-

Preet Bharara:

Well it’s funny because his slogan is winning, right? It’s actually not. It’s about fighting.

Chuck Todd:

It’s about fighting, so that’s why I actually do by the idea that Kavanaugh would have demoralized. And let’s be realistic. Kavanaugh was hours from withdrawing. Not days, hours.

Preet Bharara:

At [inaudible 00:22:13] do you believe that to be true?

Chuck Todd:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

Do you know that from PR?

Chuck Todd:

Yes, there was talk, there was some people-

Preet Bharara:

There was talk that sounds like-

Chuck Todd:

There was some people trying to get him to say, you should… I know. Right? You know in the Trump era you can get away with anything.

Preet Bharara:

I’ve been told.

Chuck Todd:

I’ve been told, people say. These statements, they’re not factually untrue but there was preparation, and there was people saying, “You got to figure out how to get out of this.”, it was like “How are you going to get out of this?”

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

And then, and Trump was ready to give up on him because he thought, “Oh, the guy doesn’t fight.” Right? He hated the Fox interview, and he thought he just rolled over when he did the Fox interviews, so Trump was ready to pull the plug on him he said, Well, why should I fight harder than he fights?”

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

And that message got back to Kavanaugh which is why Kavanaugh did what he did.

Preet Bharara:

No, I think that’s right. Look, Trump brought a lot of lawsuits before he became president, and he didn’t win them.

Chuck Todd:

That didn’t matter.

Preet Bharara:

It’s about making the point that if you cross me, I will sue you. I will mock you, I will ridicule you.

Chuck Todd:

He doesn’t care.

Preet Bharara:

I will humiliate you, and I’ve still won.

Chuck Todd:

He doesn’t care if CNN wins the lawsuit against him.

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

He got them to sue. He already won. I think that this is the asymmetrical warfare of Trump sometimes that we don’t… Everything for him is buying time in some ways too and that’s what the lawsuits do. He knows they’re frivolous, but that’s one more day that you have to deal with a frivolous lawsuit, and he’s bought time.

Preet Bharara:

Right, So the criticism, I think generally of people, and politicians, and in my view specifically of Trump.

Chuck Todd:

A criticism generally of people. I like this. Of all people.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, yeah. Of all people. Not these people.

Chuck Todd:

Right.

Preet Bharara:

No, but the general problem, ourselves included, we don’t think of the long term, right?

Chuck Todd:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

You don’t plan, everyone wants immediate gratification, which is not normally the key to success. But the weird thing is, based on what you’re saying and how Trump has been successful, that the ordinary criticism of a human being like Donald Trump is he only cares about today. And because he only cares about today, he makes decisions that are bad in the medium term and the long term.

Preet Bharara:

So he makes bad personnel decisions, he makes statements that he’s going to have to regret later but it works for him.

Chuck Todd:

Take the Fed. Take the Fed.

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

That’s the whole he’s mad at the Fed for raising rates because the Fed is worried about the long term economic health of the country and he’s thinking, “No, no, no, no. I need stimulus now. I need easy money now, I want the stock market to go up now while I’m president.”

Preet Bharara:

Right, so the question is, is he then turning leadership psychology on its head by showing you can be successful by saying, “Screw the long term, only think about the immediate term.” There’s a response to that which is, it’s good for no one but him, perhaps. But is there something to be said for how he’s changing the way that other politicians, viewing his success, that’s the danger to me I think.

Chuck Todd:

Right.

Preet Bharara:

Viewing success say, “Well, then I should be like him.”

Chuck Todd:

Well, that’s my great fear, is that he’s changing how to succeed in politics, right? I’ve spent my whole adult life analyzing politics and presidential candidates from the prism of, who can win the middle? Who’s going to be the most appealing to the middle? Whatever the middle is defined in any election but there’s always a middle.

Chuck Todd:

This is about animating your base and forcing the middle to pick a side, so he has gone down that road. And now, you are watching copycat candidates who feel as if there’s some candidates who decide “Okay, I’ve got to appeal to this Trump base so I’m going to curse.”

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

Right? Lindsey Graham has been doing that, right? He’ll say, he’s dropped the S bomb on TV, he said FU and my air. I do think Trump is changing at least the tone on how people talk to each other in politics.

Preet Bharara:

It doesn’t always fit those other people.

Chuck Todd:

I agree, like when Marco Rubio tried it.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

Didn’t go so well, frankly, and it was unbecoming on Joe Biden. Remember when Joe Biden said, “Oh, take them out and knock them out.” and on one hand you’re like… That’s not who you are. So he’s brought this pugilism to politics. And there is a group of candidates that are trying to copycat him.

Chuck Todd:

I think that is a concern of a bunch of us. What if Democrats say, “Well, if you can’t beat them, join them.” Look, I had somebody really close to me who has been active in politics for a long time on the Democratic side, who said to me, “If you have to wink, lie now in order to succeed in politics. That you have to use his tactic, ‘Hey, just tell them what they want to hear.’, that’s not the politics I want to be involved in.”

Chuck Todd:

Trump has a very cynical view of how politics works. He thinks all politics is the machine politics of the 50s and 60s New York. New York was a corrupt place in the 40s, 50s and 60s.

Preet Bharara:

He thinks the same, by the way-

Chuck Todd:

And he thinks that’s exactly that, right, everything’s that-

Preet Bharara:

Law enforcement, you name it. He thinks that, but this idea that his view of what a team is, loyalty is, is interesting, right? He doesn’t view institutions for what they are and what they’re supposed to offer, whether it’s the media, or a court, or US Attorney, or the Justice Department, or the FBI, and I think you wrote once about an exchange you had with him that made it clear that he thought you were on his team because he used to work at NBC, and they made a lot of money for NBC, and he’s like, “Look, I helped pay your salary for a long time, Chuck. So, how dare you say anything about me?”

Chuck Todd:

So in 2000, it’s funny, Savannah Guthrie and I used to have a cable show together for a while when we were in the White House. And during the 2010 and 2011 flirtations that he made thinking about running for president, he’d call us a lot after our show and say, “How come you don’t take my candidacy seriously? How come you don’t believe? And we’d put him on mute and we’d sit there and go, we’d be on the phone with him 30 minutes we’d look at each other. “Doesn’t he have other stuff to do?”

Preet Bharara:

I had that feeling too.

Chuck Todd:

At the time we’re like, we’re a couple of 9 a.m. cable hosts. No offense to anybody at 9 a.m. on cable, but we’re sitting there going, Why does he care so much about this?”

Chuck Todd:

You know where this all comes from? When you realize who his teacher was.

Preet Bharara:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chuck Todd:

Then you know why he’s skeptical the rule of law and you know who his teacher was, it was Roy Cohn.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, but why did you choose that teacher?

Chuck Todd:

Roy Marcus Cohn is the single most, other than his father, Roy Cohn is the single most influential teacher in the life of Donald Trump.

Preet Bharara:

But he chose that teacher.

Chuck Todd:

I would say he’s actually the man who… If you were to put it in modern terms, the guy who created the Donald Trump algorithm is Roy Cohn. Look at his own experience in the Rosenberg trial.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

All right? He saw the government rig evidence because they couldn’t use specific evidence because it was going to show the Soviets how they were spying, how they were discovering how the Rosenbergs were doing this. So he and the judge and the prosecutor…

Chuck Todd:

He tells Trump these stories about how this is the way the justice system worked in the 50s and in the 60s, and then Trump just says, “It works that way all the time.” So that’s Trump’s whole experience of how the rule of law works in the government, and how a justice department works in government, is through the teachings of Roy Cohn, so of course he’s going to think it’s all corrupt.

Preet Bharara:

Right, but you don’t mean to suggest that that was a passive thing. He chose to seek out people like Roy Cohn, and later people like Roger Stone and Paul Manafort and Michael Cohen. He doesn’t seek out the goody two-shoes, does he?

Chuck Todd:

No, no, no, no. They all seem to find each other It is interesting. The story of Trump and Cohn, they meet at, it wasn’t the 21 Club, it was another club in one of those restaurant clubs that were popular in the early ’70s, and he’s complaining and he meets Cohn, and he wanted to meet Cohn, I mean, he wanted to meet him, and he tells Cohn about his case and he says, “My dad and I have these Wall Street lawyers. They’re just telling us to settle. Just hurry up and get out of this, you don’t want…” And Cohn gave him the magic words, “Never settle.”

Chuck Todd:

And from then on Trump’s never settled. To understand him truly is you have to understand Roy Cohn.

Preet Bharara:

Yes. Let’s talk about the press, and its role, and your role in it. So you do this show. Meet the Press.

Chuck Todd:

I’m usually sleepy eyed when I do it.

Preet Bharara:

All right. All right. Let’s talk about that. Then we’ll get to Meet the Press. What is it like to be insulted on Twitter, and otherwise, repeatedly by the President of the United States of America? By the way you got off light, sleepy eyes is not so bad. He called you an SOB once.

Chuck Todd:

The SOB was a tough one.

Preet Bharara:

Okay.

Chuck Todd:

And it was because it was my daughter who told me about it first. And she’s 14. Right? It was up on social media.

Preet Bharara:

So how do you deal with that?

Chuck Todd:

I was pissed. I’ll just be honest. You just-

Preet Bharara:

That’s the best you’re going to do, pissed? We can bleep you.

Chuck Todd:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know how else to describe it. Look, that was one that was hard. This is a company town. You don’t shelter your kids from everything but I’ve got a, I’ve got a teenager now and somebody who’s who’s a tweener.

Preet Bharara:

Me too.

Chuck Todd:

Right. Which just means a lot of Fortnite. That’s what you discover, right? So the funniest response I got was actually from my mother who said, “He kind of owes me an apology.” And I was like, what more could I say? You’re right, Mom. It’s funny. The answer is, it rolls off the back. When you get attacked it rolls off the back. That’s what we’re all taught to do, whether you’re in public service, or I’m in the press, you let the criticism, you roll up your back, never let them see you sweat, all of those things.

Chuck Todd:

But what he has done, it doesn’t bother me. He views the press, I’ve always said that he views this all the way wrestling works. Okay? In that, and he’s a creature of wrestling first Wrestle Mania were at Trump hotels. I mean this. I think it’s actually a very important understanding of who he is and his appeal. But I think he sees it as more of a game and he even he’ll even say, “I’m good for your ratings, aren’t I? Isn’t this good for you?”

Chuck Todd:

It’s all fun and games until the death threats come. And I would say the last six to eight months, is when you realize the name calling that he’s been doing, while it felt light and fun for a while, the pounding of it, the pounding of it, the pounding of it, has had an impact on his crazies.

Chuck Todd:

95% of his bases are no more normal Americans and the rest of us, but there is this demon that he unleashed of angry loners who have used, whatever it is, maybe white nationalism makes them feel like they belong, maybe some other anti-Semitism makes them feel like they belong. And that is what now a bunch of us are dealing with. And that’s, the pipe bomb was just the most out symbolic way that a lot of people saw it.

Chuck Todd:

And this is the conversation, and a bunch of us have had this conversation with him. We know you don’t mean it as badly as others take it. I’ve said this. I know he wants it to be banter but this has had an impact on people and they have taken matters into their own hands.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. Of course.

Chuck Todd:

Your words matter, and he just will not accept that reality. That’s why you talk differently sometimes in international settings because you don’t know if somebody is going to take what you say the wrong way and start World War III. I mean, it doesn’t just apply to this, it applies to actually when you’re on the world stage.

Preet Bharara:

So, let’s talk about your reaction. So, this happens to you. Your daughter tells you, he’s cussing at you, and you’re just doing your job, and your policy has been, which is not everyone’s policy, not to respond in kind. Are you the Gandhi of the press?

Chuck Todd:

No, look, I did it my own way. I think I did a light-hearted sub tweet or retweet that just said, “I look forward to being wide awake on Sunday. See you at nine a.m. on Sunday”, or something like that. And then, I did have a Trump administration guest on. And it was interesting, they were very concerned. They knew what had happened. I mean, it was funny. It was like this one got a lot more traction because he called me an SOB. It wasn’t the sleepy eyes it was that he went harsher I was like, “My god, what has he done?”

Chuck Todd:

And I’m not a day-to-day reporter covering him so it made it even more weird, why is he, coming extra? So the administration guest, you guys can figure out who it was on but I don’t want to make it easy for everybody. Their person just went to my producer, “Just so you know, the Secretary really respects Chuck.”, just nervous about how I was going to ask him the questions, and so what I decided to do was ask him about comments the President made the night before, in the same speech but not about me but about what he said about Maxine Waters. And I made it about her. And I say, “Why does he call her low IQ?”

Chuck Todd:

And I just decided it’s like, look, I don’t normally… You pick and choose how often do you decide to make a Trump administration official have to respond to something the President said at a rally? And we have this debate a lot in our newsroom. Should they have to answer for his…?

Chuck Todd:

And I decided, well, Maxine Waters is on the Financial Services Committee, I found a committee that was connected to the person. I thought that’s at least relevant to how that person has to do their job. So, I chose to aggressively question this person on other stuff he said and just kept me out of it.

Preet Bharara:

But you were thinking about yourself.

Chuck Todd:

Of course I was. No, no, no. I fully admit I was angry, and I was in one of those, but I try-

Preet Bharara:

You turned into the Hulk?

Chuck Todd:

No I just was like-

Preet Bharara:

Did you see that?

Chuck Todd:

I know.

Preet Bharara:

That’s like the beginning of the Hulk transformation.

Chuck Todd:

And it’s the only time that I was visibly, and I was both nervous and upset and figuring out, I don’t want to lose my cool but I really want to make him feel uncomfortable. I did. I was like, that one went too far and I wanted them to feel the pain. Sadly this person’s never been on again.

Preet Bharara:

But doesn’t that put you in an odd spot?

Chuck Todd:

It does.

Preet Bharara:

In this in the following sense though, that you try to be objective, you try to be neutral, you call them like you see them. You take a lot of pains not to give away whether you’re a Democrat or Republican, who you vote for, and everything else. And the President calls you an SOB, and then, let’s say, maybe a couple of days later you say something critical of a policy or a practice, or a statement, he’s bought himself the ability to say, “Well, he’s just mad.”

Chuck Todd:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

“He doesn’t like me because I tweaked him on Twitter. “How do you deal with his forcing you to look like perhaps you’re not objective because he’s maligned you?

Chuck Todd:

This is the trap that he set for all of us, and I always say, “I know the trap.”

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

I know he set the trap, which is, you remember was the Steve Bannon line very early, the media is the opposition party. So you’re in this position if you don’t respond then his false accusations go unanswered. And if you do respond, then you’re acting as if you’re the opposition, right? So it is a trap.

Preet Bharara:

It’s checkmate.

Chuck Todd:

Well this is where I just feel as if, and I would say it was about a year ago, and my staff can tell you this where I got this philosophy. It was somebody else’s advice and I can’t remember where I read it, but I thought, you know what, that’s the right answer. Just say what you see. Period. And I just viewed my job as this, “I’m going to say what I see, what he’s doing, why he’s doing it, give context, why is he attacking the press?”

Chuck Todd:

And explain, he’s setting a trap here, he’s making it, he’s attacking us in the press so that if we criticize… Explain it to viewers, be fully transparent, so say what you see. And also, I don’t care if people don’t like me. As much as, on one hand you’re saying, oh you human beings, of course you do. But as the journalist Chuck Todd, host of Meet the Press, it’s not a popularity contest, right? We have to realize as journalists, if your real goal in life is to call them like you see them, then you’re probably going to piss people off a lot.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

So, embrace it. I’ve done it I’ve done little things to realize that that’s the case. Okay, I’ve retreated a bit from social media, I still do it but I’m not… I don’t socialize in official Washington the way I think we used to. Look, I think one of the fairest criticisms of the press in general, and I think what made it easy to bash us, is that we did give the appearance of being a little too chummy with the powerful.

Chuck Todd:

And I think one of the ways to make the 2016 election as consequential for our future in ways that we haven’t thought about is, number one, embrace the fact that, hey, is there anybody who’d been better for civic engagement than Donald Trump in the last 30 years? I mean, that turnout, the voter turnout was unbelievable so-

Preet Bharara:

But that a little bit like saying, has anyone that’s been better for doctors recently than-

Chuck Todd:

Cancer?

Preet Bharara:

… disease?

Chuck Todd:

Yeah exactly. I know. Where what the CDC be without disease?

Preet Bharara:

Boy.

Chuck Todd:

But I can tell you this.

Preet Bharara:

I hear you.

Chuck Todd:

I think a lot of people have decided to look at their place in all of this and say, “Okay, what have I done? What do I think I’ve done well and what can I do better?”, and so in that sense I feel like, at the end of the day, let’s inward look a little bit as the press and everybody else can do their own inward looking, and those are the conclusions I came to which is, stop worrying about what people think of you. In a polarized environment if you really think you’re going to be an umpire and a successful referee in this business then say what you see.

Preet Bharara:

So let’s talk about a particular case of someone who has angered people including the President, someone who had your job, who has who the job you used to have you for CNN, where I am, I should say, where I’m a contributor. Jim Acosta, whose title is what? Senior White House.

Chuck Todd:

I don’t know if he’s Senior or Chief I don’t know what the CNN naming constructions are.

Preet Bharara:

Chief What House… And he had his press credentials withdrawn. So, CNN has filed a lawsuit over the revocation of the White House press credential on the part of Jim Acosta, and lots of other news organizations, including Fox News and others.

Chuck Todd:

NBC as well.

Preet Bharara:

NBC as well.

Chuck Todd:

We’ve all filed amicus briefs.

Preet Bharara:

A whole bunch of news organizations who are otherwise competitive with CNN have said they’re going to file amicus briefs, friends of the court briefs, which is interesting to me and makes me think of political parallel which you don’t see a lot of but that I enjoy seeing and I like to talk about these issues on the podcast, where Democrats and Republicans, they fight. They have different views about politics, tax policy and everything else, but you’re seeing a group of people, whether it’s Max Boot, sometimes Jeff Flake, Steve Schmidt, and others who say, “You know what? We compete and we have different ideological views, but there’s some there’s some things that are more important than party and ideology, like decency, like free press, like independence of law enforcement etc.” And I wonder, you can clap for that. And I wonder if there’s a little bit of that-

Chuck Todd:

It’s just depressing that you people have to clap for fair law enforcement. It used to be given.

Preet Bharara:

It’s like, truth.

Chuck Todd:

Yes. Right on. Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

Truth is truth.

Chuck Todd:

Yes. Truth isn’t truth, Preet. Sorry.

Preet Bharara:

So yeah, we’re going to get to that too. So you guys compete. People on your network, people on the network of CNN, they criticize each other on Fox, they belittle each other. And on this thing with Jim Acosta, they’re in agreement. Some things are more important than ratings and competition. What do you make of that?

Chuck Todd:

Well, first of all, it would have been hypocritical if Fox hadn’t signed on and I’ll tell you why, because I was in the Obama administration when I remember one time when they did a pooled event and tried to keep Fox out of it at Treasury. And basically, the rest of us said it’s, “It’s a pooled event. There are five members of the pool, television pool. In this case, this is how it works. It’s one for all for one.” So basically, we refused to do the interviews with the Treasury people unless Fox also could do it.

Chuck Todd:

So there’s history here. We have, in some ways, it would have been hypocritical had they not and that is why I think every news organization looks at this. You can, as you said, you can disagree with how they’ve handled certain things or how they choose to go about their business as a network, whether it’s Fox, whether it’s CNN, whether it’s MSNBC, ABC, CBS, right? But the fact of the matter is if they can do it to him, they can do it to you.

Chuck Todd:

And if this administration does it to that network, a new administration could do it to that network and, as you said, we’re sitting here frustrated that Donald Trump never thinks long term, to Fox’s credit, and frankly I think every news organizations credit, they’re thinking long term. Trump probably will only serve for maybe five terms. So at some point…

Chuck Todd:

I always joke I’m like, we’re going to wake up in 2032. How did he get a fourth term?

Chuck Todd:

But these are some principles, and frankly, it’s worth defining. I’m very curious to see what this guy is going to do, the judge, because there is a technical way he may try to split this decision, where the government can have control over the hard pass, but can’t control who a news organization sends in. That’s my personal speculation as to the delay is what this judge is trying to find a way to throw bone at the White House.

Preet Bharara:

But to me it’s interesting and I haven’t studied it too closely and I should be careful about how I comment on it since I’m-

Chuck Todd:

I was just going to say, I thought, “Wait Preet asked me about this.”

Preet Bharara:

I’m a contributor.

Chuck Todd:

I only play a lawyer on TV, you are a lawyer on TV.

Preet Bharara:

I know. If Donald Trump could to figure out a way to save face and just make it go away in a way that looks magnanimous but also like he’s winning, you don’t want this to come to its conclusion. Right?

Chuck Todd:

Oh, I agree. Oh-

Preet Bharara:

You don’t want it to come to a conclusion.

Chuck Todd:

The lawsuit is the win. This goes back to what I said earlier. It doesn’t matter if we technically win as the press in this case. His people love the fact, “Man, you really took it to them. You had to make them go to court to come cover you. Good for you.” Rather than, you want to say to this person, “Wait a minute. Okay, you like this president. What if Fox were prevented from covering Obama? How would you have felt about this?”

Chuck Todd:

That’s the conversation I want to have with the rank and file Trump voter, which is you’re cheering this. You do understand if President Elizabeth Warren kicks Fox out. That was an interesting reaction. Alright let me try another one. If President Steve Bullock… Anything? Anything? I’m just trying different ones. If President Andrew Gillum. That got more. Wow, how about that? See, you’re better off losing than winning sometimes. Beto O’Rourke. That was an easy one.

Preet Bharara:

Gary Hart. Oh, sorry. Sorry.

Chuck Todd:

That’s the logical conversation you want to have, but again, it goes back to, if Trump’s fighting with the press, then his people aren’t reading about the Muller probe.

Preet Bharara:

Yup.

Chuck Todd:

If Trump’s fighting with the press, his people aren’t reading about the fact that we are in a trade war with China and China may not blink. The point is is that I feel like these fights, it’s just distractions. And we know it, but yet we have to fight it on principle. This is the frustrating part.

Preet Bharara:

It’s a huge critique of the press. On the one hand, people say, “Well, the President kept talking about the caravan.”, which was BS. And they were thousands of miles away and he massed troops on the border, but there’s a not an unreasonable critique that, not just after the election the president stopped talking about it, but the press did to.

Preet Bharara:

What is the obligation of the press to sometimes not say what comes out of the President’s mouth? And I think there’s a reasonable argument.

Chuck Todd:

That’s, Preet, you are getting, again-

Preet Bharara:

II will note, the most sustained applause of the evening.

Chuck Todd:

Yeah, no, no, no, no. And as my staff could vouch for me, we have this debate every day.

Preet Bharara:

I believe it.

Chuck Todd:

The tweets. Here’s where I fall back on. Who am I to decide when to take the President seriously or not?

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

And I say this because when, one of the great examples was, remember when Trump said “Well, Obama’s the founder of ISIS.”

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

And we said, well Hugh Hewitt, by the way, had him on his radio show as a candidate, and Hugh Hewitt says, “Well, you don’t mean the actual founder.”, and he said, “No, no, no, no. I mean it that way. He did it.” So here was a moment where we in the press said. Well, he’s not a serious accusation, and Trump said, “No, no, no, no. I mean it.”

Chuck Todd:

So I go back to, is it up to me to crawl in his head to know it’s a facetious line? For instance, the whole Colin Kaepernick controversy. You know why that became an issue for Trump? Because he was at a rally in Alabama that was going south, campaigning for Luther Strange at the time who was a dead man walking in the Republican primary. And Trump’s greatest gift as a candidate is he knows how to read a room. I promise you, if he were in this room he’d find a way to entertain your guys. He just would. He has the ability.

Preet Bharara:

But it is raining.

Chuck Todd:

It is raining. He might not get here.

Preet Bharara:

So he’s not here.

Chuck Todd:

The safest place from Trump is in a rainstorm.

Preet Bharara:

If we could just have a brief period of time of extreme weather all across the United States maybe he would go somewhere.

Chuck Todd:

Only if it freezes over

Preet Bharara:

Can ask this question.

Chuck Todd:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

It’s really the case that there is a certain level of equality in the world. Even if you’re a governor or a senator and there’s no one above the law we say, and this is a terrible conclusion that I’ve come to, and as a prosecutor, for example, people have attacked the prosecutor. I got attacked all the time. And some people had a bigger megaphone than other people. And they say, “Well, you’re going after because I’m a Republican, or because I’m from this ethnic background, or because I’m Russian.”, or whatever.

Preet Bharara:

And it’s difficult, and they have some platform, but they’re not the President.

Chuck Todd:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

There’s something that the President is different-

Chuck Todd:

I agree.

Preet Bharara:

… from every other human being, not just in America, but in the world, and the President’s megaphone is just a different order, right? And so, it’s another example of checkmate, it seems to me. So, you have an obligation as an officer, I’ll say, of the press, because the leader of the free world, such as it is, says X or Y, and so that principle that you recite seems perfectly appropriate, and just, and right, and righteous.

Preet Bharara:

And it also seems okay to say about some lesser mortal, “You know what? We’re not going to talk about that guy.” Alex Jones, or whoever else, who is spouting filth, the conundrum is it’s the president, and we elected him and, how do you deal with it? And we’ve never seen anything like it. And it seems to me that the models that we’ve created over time, that are storied and that we laud, and that we revere, in some ways, are not up to the task of it. So what do you do?

Chuck Todd:

Look, the history of Trump is that he eventually wears out an audience and he finds a new one. But the problem now is just he’s found his biggest audience he’s ever had, right? If you look at these days at the USFL if you look at his days in Atlantic City, if you look at his days as a real estate developer in Manhattan, if you look at his days as an apprentice. In each case, they had lifespans, right? Big openings, disastrous closings, right? The USFL, Atlantic City, the Apprentice eventually gets canceled, right? All of those things.

Chuck Todd:

So the history of him is that he eventually punches himself out. This is the largest audience he’s ever had so, like I said, it may take his fourth term before the country. Totally is worn out on hi shtick. I do think we need to do a better, like I said, we need to do a better job of putting all of it in context. So if he’s doing it, explain why he’s doing it. There’s a why behind it.

Chuck Todd:

So today, for instance, he went off on the Muller probe.

Preet Bharara:

Multiple times.

Chuck Todd:

Yeah. But what was interesting about it is it was nothing new. It was literally, he took 18 months of Muller criticisms and compacted them into 24 hours. It was the greatest hits, even Peter Strzok and Lisa Page and you’re like, “I haven’t even heard those names since August.”

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

Huh, oh, Muller’s quiet period is over. Oh, never mind we’ve all been on pins and needles, checking the courthouse every day this week, knowing that what indictment is coming, what indictment is coming? And you’re like, “Oh my God, look, the President said…” One thing about President Trump, I’d love to play poker with him, because I think he’s a terrible poker player. That dude’s got some tells that are-

Preet Bharara:

That’s true.

Chuck Todd:

And this one felt like a tell. So today we took all his tweets, he clearly is nervous something is coming. Right? And we know he’s been in the middle of answering the written portion of the Muller interview. So he’s angry. So in that case, I think that’s how I’ve chosen to deal with it. I don’t know if it’s right or wrong.

Chuck Todd:

One thing I’ll say about covering Trump. I wasn’t at NBC when we covered the Iraq war, but I accept the idea that I’m a member of the National Press Corps, and so I own that too. Okay? I wasn’t covering Iraq, but I say this in that my industry failed the country in Iraq.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

Okay? We did. Generally. Okay. And I think in the moment, and that this is a case I go back to where you worry too much about being popular. I think in the Iraq war we were worried, it had become so wrapped up in patriotism and wrapped up in the national identity that there were too many journalists in the national states that… And the embedding with troops turned out to be a mistake, and there’s all sorts of reasons why that went.

Chuck Todd:

I basically say this about the Trump era. I don’t know if we’re doing it right. We’re going to know in five years, whether we did it right. And I don’t want this to be my Iraq war. And I don’t want this to be my generation’s version of this and I know if we blow this one, our industry is in deep trouble.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

So I don’t know if we’re getting it right with Trump, we’re going to know in about five or six years, we’ll know better in 10 years, perhaps, but I do view it that way. It’s like, don’t worry about being judged today or tomorrow about how you’re covering Trump, whether it’s fair or not fair. Worry about what this looks like in 10 years. So I do think about that. I think every interview I do with a Trump person, in particular, I’m like. “Will this age well?” I think, because if you think in those terms, I think you’ll ask smarter questions and we might get better information out of him.

Preet Bharara:

Congress. So, the Democrats have the house. Give me your… You can clap for that. Is it possible that the President changes his tack with Congress and decides, “Maybe we’ll do something on healthcare. Maybe we’ll do something on criminal justice reform, maybe we’ll do something on infrastructure.”, and he pivots or is he incapable of pivoting?

Chuck Todd:

I don’t know. I thought the most interesting aspect of a Trump presidency was his lack of ideology. We’ve always wondered, “What would happen if you had a non-ideological president?” He has no ideology, right? He doesn’t. This is why do you have small government conservatives who are feeling as if, “Oh my god, the ideology is dead.”, right?

Chuck Todd:

Trump doesn’t believe in a small government, he believes in strong government. Frankly, that is, in some ways, the worst thing you could be to a real small government conservative. Logically, that makes sense. For the life of me, I don’t understand why the first thing he didn’t do was infrastructure, because that was the easy bipartisan win.

Chuck Todd:

Successful presidencies start with something easy to get the big bipartisan win. Obama thought stimulus would be easy, it turned out the Republican party decided to make it harder for him, but in general the principle was, “Well, spending money usually everybody’s for that.”

Preet Bharara:

You mean-

Chuck Todd:

George W. Bush did a bipartisan deal on education early on with Ted Kennedy. He knew that he got elected in a divisive election and he was trying to bridge the divide early.

Preet Bharara:

This president started with a travel ban.

Chuck Todd:

Right. No, no. He went right to divide, but that is something I think that we have to… So, the logical thing for him to do would be to pivot, cut some deals with Pelosi, everybody, you can ask congressional Republicans that were there in the ’90s with Bill Clinton, their frustration that they’d do all these bipartisan deals and only Bill Clinton got the credit. {residents get all the credit, and Congress never gets any of it in those bipartisan deals.

Chuck Todd:

So it’s actually easy. This would be, should be, actually a layup for Trump, infrastructure. Done. But I think he’s so determined and his base, they are not as interested in results as they are in the fight. It goes back to the fight.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

Everything is about the fight, and I think he believes that the only reason that these midterms weren’t a total disaster is that he got his people out due to the fight. Look, he Paul Ryan is telling him, “No, close with the economy.”, and he’s going, which by the way, Trump was right and Ryan was wrong. Had they closed with the economy, his people wouldn’t have come out.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

Closing with the caravan and scaring the living daylights out of people was actually the right turnout call. Terrible for the country, as far as creating literally a mythology about it.

Preet Bharara:

But Trump said the economy is kind of boring. He said it was kind of boring.

Chuck Todd:

He said that, right. So, I don’t think he’s going to do these deals, even though, yes, this should be easy. Literally, it’s the Bill Clinton playbook. Cut a bunch of deals with Newt Gingrich, then make Newt Gingrich the boogeyman in 1996. So, that’s how Bill Clinton won reelection. He cut a bunch of deals, signed them, and ran against that horrible Newt Gingrich in the presidential race, even though Bob Dole was his opponent.

Chuck Todd:

You look at every attack ad in the ’96 race and it was Bob Dole and Newt Gingrich. So the playbook is actually quite easy. If Trump chose to do a conventional political playbook, cut a bunch of deals with Pelosi and make her the boogeywoman, and make Pelosi be the running mate for whoever the Democrats nominate, which he may still try to do. But if he is the stumbling block, and look.

Chuck Todd:

And here’s the irony. Democrats actually need him. They have to at least get caught trying to work with Trump. That’s the irony.

Preet Bharara:

They have to get caught.

Chuck Todd:

Get caught trying. Doesn’t mean you have to do a deal, look like you’re trying to do a deal. Democrats have too many people… They won middle of the road voters. They won a slice of voters who may have voted for Trump in ’16, who don’t like his temperament, but would like to see some bipartisanship.

Chuck Todd:

So I do think Democrats are incentivized more to try to find some common ground with him. Infrastructure is the easiest one to do, maybe even the pre-existing doing some tinkers to Obamacare. So Democrats have to do that, I think, for their own political issues.

Chuck Todd:

But I don’t know if Trump’s going to act conventionally on this or not.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. So-

Chuck Todd:

And by the way, he might get a primary challenge, or two, or three, which then will, of course drive him further to the base.

Preet Bharara:

Who are the three?

Chuck Todd:

Oh, I think john Kasich, I think Ben Sasse, I think Jeff Flake. I think they’re all interested in doing it and they’ll all get crushed because.

Preet Bharara:

Who’s the most viable of those three? Kasich?

Chuck Todd:

No, you can’t run to the left. Sasse is the only one that seems to have a following-

Preet Bharara:

Among conservatives?

Chuck Todd:

Yeah. Conservatives who are appalled by Trump, Sasse is their number one person.

Preet Bharara:

Does Jeff Flake have any constituency in the conservative movement?

Chuck Todd:

No, no. Sasse might have a little but even that… Look, Trump has transformed the party. Again, he’s redefined what’s conservative. Conservative right now is whatever Trump says it is.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

What I thought the definition of conservative, and frankly what Paul Ryan thought the definition of conservative was, turned out, just that isn’t what that base was that interested in.

Preet Bharara:

I’m sorry, who?

Chuck Todd:

Yeah. There was this guy. He was a rising star in Wisconsin. And he actually became speaker of the house.

Preet Bharara:

Is there a greater non entity and Republican politics at the moment than Paul Ryan?

Chuck Todd:

I literally feel like I grew up professionally with Paul Ryan. I remember when he got elected to Congress. He was a staffer at Empower America. I was working at a thing called the Hotline back in the mid ’90s, and Ryan was one of these… You thought, “Oh, this is a Jack Kemp acolyte.”

Chuck Todd:

And I don’t know, speaker was the worst role for him.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

I think he knew it.

Preet Bharara:

He was reluctant.

Chuck Todd:

What was so interesting about it is it wasn’t phony reluctance. He was reluctant because he didn’t have the… He would say he didn’t have the cynicism to do the job right. I don’t think it’s cynicism, he just didn’t have that sharp edge of an insider, or Paul, that you have to have, if you’re going to succeed in a job like that.

Preet Bharara:

Nor does he seem to have backbone.

Chuck Todd:

Well it’s… By the way, the two go hand-in-hand.

Preet Bharara:

I mean, you’ve got to have one. You’ve got to have of those.

Chuck Todd:

You’ve got to have backbone to be successful leader.

Preet Bharara:

If you’re going to kick us out-

Chuck Todd:

Mitch McConnell has tremendous backbone.

Preet Bharara:

He does.

Chuck Todd:

You may not like right what he stiffens his spine for.

Preet Bharara:

But as Obama once said-

Chuck Todd:

But that dude’s got backbone.

Preet Bharara:

… you will have a drink with Mitch McConnell. Remember that? Let’s do a very quick lightning round.

Chuck Todd:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

Ready?

Chuck Todd:

Go.

Preet Bharara:

I’ll start with an easy one.

Chuck Todd:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

What is the longest running show on television?

Chuck Todd:

Very nice. I love it. We like to say it’s Meet the Press.

Preet Bharara:

Yes.

Chuck Todd:

It’s the longest running television show in the world.

Preet Bharara:

In the world?

Chuck Todd:

Nobody’s proven to me different. Nobody’s yet come up with evidence, nobody has proven that fact incorrect yet.

Preet Bharara:

There’s not like a show in Myanmar that…

Chuck Todd:

Would you consider a full beard. Oh 1,000%. I’ve-

Speaker 3:

Do it.

Chuck Todd:

By the way, Mrs. Todd encourages it. She’s put it on our Instagram a couple of times. You could see the full beard. Every winter it comes out. I just always worry I’m going to look like my rabbi.

Preet Bharara:

Do I look like your rabbi?

Chuck Todd:

You know what? Actually-

Preet Bharara:

A little bit?

Chuck Todd:

A little bit, yeah.

Preet Bharara:

Have you ever played Devil’s Triangle? Every time I do that question it never gets old for me.

Chuck Todd:

I am not a naive guy, and I was a house party guy in the late ’80s early ’90s in Miami. I’d never heard of that one.

Preet Bharara:

So your official answer is no.

Chuck Todd:

My official answer is no. I’ve never heard of that one. That was new to me.

Preet Bharara:

Do you have a favorite Donald Trump lie?

Chuck Todd:

That The Apprentice was number one.

Preet Bharara:

Will young people vote in the same numbers in 2020?

Chuck Todd:

Oh yes. I think we’re going to have a… Here’s the thing. We have never had, this was our first 100 million midterm, voter midterm. We’ve never had 150 million general election. I think the highest was about 138 million. I think we’re easily going to hit 150 million total voters, probably higher. Like I said, civic engagement.

Chuck Todd:

Now, I will quote something Andrew Sullivan wrote, you know you’re truly free when you’re free to not care about politics and he said, “More people feel like they have to care about politics and maybe we’ve lost a little bit of our freedom.”

Preet Bharara:

A little bit of freedom. Yeah. When it rains, do you still go to work?

Chuck Todd:

Yes. Yes.

Preet Bharara:

If you could have any job, because you’ve, you’ve talked about the revolving door, and you’ve been critical of it. Journalism, politics, government. If you could have any job in government, what would it be?

Chuck Todd:

Oh wow.

Preet Bharara:

There’s need for an AG.

Chuck Todd:

No, no, no, no. I know that. I guess I would say it would be mayor of Pensacola. I say that because it’s where my wife’s from. I think the best elected job in America is mayor. It’s just mayor of any city or town, because you truly can be a public servant. It’s one of the few jobs that every day you have your own poll to find out how you’re doing.

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Chuck Todd:

Because people let you know how you’re doing. It would be the only elected job I would feel compelled to attempt, and feel as if it wouldn’t be violating my revolving door issue, for what it’s worth.

Preet Bharara:

Can Beto O’Rourke run in 2020 and win the presidency?

Chuck Todd:

No. Well, there is one other person that pulled it off so him and Abe Lincoln, so why not, right? Abe Lincoln lost a Senate race and won the presidency. So, if you think that Ted Cruz is Douglas and Beto O’Rourke is Lincoln and Ted Cruz fashions himself as a Lincoln Douglas-like debater.

Chuck Todd:

Look, I was a big skeptic of Beto, just, “I can do it my way. I’m smarter than everybody else.” Well, he almost was. He did a lot better. I always say one of the biggest problems in my business is been there done that disease. So you’ve got to be careful of it.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

And just because what used to happen in Texas yesterday doesn’t mean it’s what happens in Texas tomorrow. But look, I joked about the Beto thing, right? And he heard these tears. Phoenix, Arizona, I’d see more Beto O’Rourke shirts then Kiersten Sinema. Tampa, Florida. Beto O’Rourke the-shirts. He tapped into something.

Chuck Todd:

I think that I wouldn’t rule it out.

Preet Bharara:

In 2006-

Chuck Todd:

I think he should I think it’s real.

Preet Bharara:

In 2006, people laughed at Obama, people forget that now but they did, they laughed at the prospect that he would run.

Chuck Todd:

They weren’t laughing, but people thought, “Oh, it’s too soon.” And here’s the lesson of Obama. Frankly, it’s the lesson of everybody that never ran in 1992 who all said, “No, no, no, no. Well let that hit from Arkansas run.”

Preet Bharara:

Or Chris Christie in 2012. A

Chuck Todd:

And in 1996, we’ll run for the open presidency, which is every nominations worth having and when it’s your time it’s your time.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Chuck Todd:

Don’t wait your turn. Take your turn.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. Chuck Todd, you were very generous with your time. Thank you for joining us.

Chuck Todd:

Thank you.

Preet Bharara:

Everyone tune in every Sunday.

Chuck Todd:

That’s right. Sunday.

Preet Bharara:

And then, every day at 5 p.m. Yes, sir.

Chuck Todd:

Round of applause for Chuck Todd.