Published April 29, 2021

Preet Bharara:

From CAFE and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is Stay Tuned. I’m Preet Bharara.

Clarissa Ward:

The way we grow up and the way we live has a huge impact on our behavior, and that doesn’t necessarily make us a good person or a bad person. It makes us a product of who we are and where we came from.

Preet Bharara:

That’s Clarissa Ward. She’s CNN’s Chief International Correspondent, and the author of a recent memoir, On All Fronts: The Education of A Journalist. Ward is one of the world most prolific war correspondents. She has visited Syria over a dozen times to cover the ongoing crisis.

Preet Bharara:

In 2019, she received wide acclaim for her reports from the Taliban-controlled area of Afghanistan. She just returned from Myanmar, where she was the first Western journalist to fly in since the February 1st coup. This week, she’s headed to India to report on the country’s devastating surge in COVID-19 cases. We talk about Ward’s story career, the role 9/11 played in shaping her worldview, and the moral considerations of war reporting in 2021. That’s coming up. Stay tuned.

Preet Bharara:

Now, let’s get to your questions. This question comes in a tweet from Dewey Swak, S-W-A-K. Very simple question or request, “Discuss the latest census results, what it changes for congress.”

Preet Bharara:

Well, that’s a good question. Dewey, of course, is referring to the Census Bureau’s pretty big announcement on Monday of the country’s population count, which was delayed a number of months by the COVID-19 pandemic, and then also you may recall the Trump administration’s efforts to exclude non-citizens from the census.

Preet Bharara:

So, the Census Bureau, in addition to announcing that there are 331 million people living in the US, the Census Bureau also reallocated congressional seats based on changes in population. Remember, there are 435 House seats. That number does not change. What changes sometimes, depending on the census, is how many seats each state gets. That’s a process called reapportionment, and it’s just the first official step in the larger once in a decade project of redistricting, which is done, as you might imagine, on a state-by-state basis.

Preet Bharara:

So, what were the big takeaways from the numbers released on Monday? Well, they were a couple of big surprises. Texas gained only two congressional seats, one short of what people expected to be three. Arizona didn’t gain a single seat. Colorado, Florida, North Carolina, Oregon, and Montana each gained one seat. California lost a seat for the first time since being admitted to the union. Who were the other losers? Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and my home state of New York. They each lost one seat.

Preet Bharara:

The fate of some states, by the way, was decided by very slim margins. For example, Minnesota clinched the 435th seat in the House over my home state of New York. You know what that margin was? It was just 89 people. If 89 more people were counted to New York, Minnesota would have shouldered the loss.

Preet Bharara:

With the Census Bureau’s announcement, the redistricting fight is pretty much off to the raises. Individual states get to draw their own congressional maps and each state approaches the task differently. In some states, state legislatures control the map drawing process, but in other states, the job is placed in the hands of independent commissions.

Preet Bharara:

You know what this means? You know what you can expect. Lawsuits, lots of lawsuits. There is expected to be extensive litigation all over the country. So, we don’t yet know what the extent of the gerrymandering will be or exactly how it will impact who controls the House, but Republicans do have a distinct advantage.

Preet Bharara:

According to the Brennan Center, Republicans have unified control of the congressional redistricting process in 18 states as opposed to seven for the Democrats. Dave Wasserman, who works at The Cook Political Report and is generally considered a good authority on these things, has predicted that the Democrats will lose three to four seats based on redistricting alone. Now, recall, the margin in the House right now is only six. So, this will have a significant impact. Stay tuned.

Preet Bharara:

This question comes in a tweet from listener Steve’s Drunken Ramblings. This is not such a drunken ramble, so congratulations on that. “What practical measures can the Justice Department impose on local and state police departments that are found to be behaving poorly shall we say? Say the Louisville investigation reveals widespread maleficence, what can the Justice Department realistically do?”

Preet Bharara:

Well, that’s a great question, and the Justice Department, depending on the circumstances and depending on what their investigation uncovers, can do quite a bit, and there are examples of this from all over the country. We have done this in the Southern District as well not only with respect to police departments, but also correctional facilities like Rikers Island, which I talked about before.

Preet Bharara:

First, what you can expect in Louisville is a very, very focused and thorough and wide ranging top down review and bottom up review, if you will, by investigators at the FBI and the Justice Department. The first thing that you can expect in some months’ time is probably a very thorough report outlining all the things that they find, which will, by the way, not just be derived from interviews with police officers and leaders at the police department, and documents they obtain, and disciplinary records that they procure from the police department, but also talking to members of the community and finding out what their interactions have been. So, expect it to be thorough, expect it to be lengthy, but expect it to take some months.

Preet Bharara:

then with respect to what measures can be imposed, I would expect to happen as this happened in other jurisdictions, the Justice Department will then move to try to get the police department and the municipality to enter into a consent decree, which is basically a binding order from a federal district court judge that requires certain changes, requires certain commitments to be met on a certain timetable and, in all likelihood, an outside monitor, somebody who’s an expert on policing, probably formerly in law enforcement themselves to oversee the whole thing.

Preet Bharara:

In Ferguson, Missouri, for example, you’ll remember the shooting of Michael Brown raised a lot of questions and concerns back in 2014. The Justice Department put out a report over 100 pages, 102-page report outlining all the things that they saw with respect to bias, with respect to discrimination, with respect to using arrests for the purpose of raising money as opposed to legitimate reasons involving public safety, and they put that all in a report that was made public. Then another year went by until they could get a consent decree entered between the Justice Department and Ferguson.

Preet Bharara:

Just a quick review of that report shows all kinds of ways to answer your question that the DOJ can impose requirements on a local or state police department. That consent decree in Ferguson required, among other things, changes in training, required meetings with the community with some specificity, to put in place a neighborhood policy steering committee, reforming of the municipal code, all manner of disciplinary changes, reporting requirements, the implementation of use of force policies and standards, and the list goes on and on and on.

Preet Bharara:

Now, compliance with those things and those impositions is a different matter. Over time, after a consent decree is entered, typically, there’s a regular reporting requirement. So, the DOJ and the monitor can see what progress is being made and from time to time, this has happened in Ferguson, this has happened with Rikers Island and other jurisdictions, there are disputes and debates and arguments about whether or not they’re making the right progress and they’re complying with the requirements of the consent decree. In rare circumstances, the Justice Department can go back and amend the consent decree. They can go to the court to ask for enforcement. There can be penalties.

Preet Bharara:

So, there’s a mechanism if you have a consent decree. It’s not always successful. Sometimes it’s quite successful. Just in the past few days, people have been pointing to the experience of Newark, New Jersey. Its police department has been under a consent decree for the last few years, and the Newark police department announced that in all of 2020, in the midst of all these cases we’re seeing of unlawful use of force and excessive use of force, and shooting of unarmed people, and the news out of the police department in Newark is that police officers during the entire calendar year of 2020 never fired a single shot. That’s pretty remarkable for a place that has had a history of violence and police issues significant enough to cause the Department of Justice to investigate and impose a consent decree. We’ll see what happens in Louisville.

Preet Bharara:

This question comes in a tweet from listener Fandi Adidia who says, “Congrats for The Webby Awards. How does it feel from going from being very respected running SDNY to now running arguably one of the most respected podcasts in America, #AskPreet?”

Preet Bharara:

Now, of course, I’ve read that question to indulgently have the excuse to remind all of you to vote in The Webby Awards. Stay Tuned with Preet has been nominated for People’s Voice Webby Award for Best Episode of a News and Politics Podcast. It’s the episode. You may remember it, featuring my conversation with Dan Goldman, my former colleagues, and the man who served as Lead House Majority Council during the first impeachment of President Trump. So, head to vote.webbyawards.com and search for Stay Tuned or Preet to cast your ballot. You can also find a direct voting link in the show notes of this episode. Thanks as always for your support.

Preet Bharara:

Stay tuned. There’s more coming up after this.

Preet Bharara:

My guest this week is Clarissa Ward. She’s the Chief International Correspondent for CNN and has spent the last 15 years reporting from crisis zones all over the world, from Iraq to Syria, to Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. Earlier this month, Ward visited Myanmar, which is in the midst of civil conflict following a military coup on February 1st. Ward explains what she saw on the troubled nation and fills us in on the complicated political situation that precipitated the coup.

Preet Bharara:

Clarissa Ward, thanks for coming on the show.

Clarissa Ward:

Thank you so much for having me on, Preet.

Preet Bharara:

It’s good to talk to you. You are different from many other guests in the following way, I would say. The pandemic has basically grounded everyone of taking virtually no trips in 14 months. Most of my guests who have interests around the world have done most of that work by Zoom. You have not been grounded by the pandemic, have you?

Clarissa Ward:

No, I have not. I was-

Preet Bharara:

You continue to go everywhere.

Clarissa Ward:

I do. It’s a lot harder to go everywhere. It takes a lot longer to plan these trips and there are all sorts of considerations-

Preet Bharara:

Right. Of course.

Clarissa Ward:

… but I do continue to travel. Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

Do you feel any particular additional risk in the last year of traveling?

Clarissa Ward:

To be honest, from my perspective covering conflict and going to some of the places that I do, I do see COVID as a real risk. I do take it very seriously. I am very fortunate to have been vaccinated, but it’s a risk that I am comfortable with in comparison or relative to some of the other risks that I’m often taken from my work.

Preet Bharara:

Like gunfire?

Clarissa Ward:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

… or captured by [inaudible 00:11:11] forces?

Clarissa Ward:

Yeah. Exactly, and the list goes on, but that said, I don’t want to minimize COVID. It’s an insidious risk. It’s a different kind of risk. It’s a risk that’s really easy to be glib about, and it’s very important when you’re traveling to stay alert and to stay militant about washing your hands, wearing the mask, observing the social distancing.

Preet Bharara:

So, it occurs to me that the places you visit have all sorts of issues and internal strife and problems, and on top of that, we layer in COVID. Given some of the places you’ve gone, is COVID an afterthought on those countries or is COVID front of mind everywhere you’ve been no matter what else is going on?

Clarissa Ward:

Oh, I would say in many countries that I’ve been to COVID is an afterthought. Even in places like Russia, which has a very good vaccine, Sputnik V, and yet a lot of people there don’t want to take it, not even because they don’t trust the vaccine, but because for most people, they just see COVID-19 as being like the flu. Despite the fact that Russia has been ravaged by this virus, despite the fact that they’ve had some of the worst death tolls, they still have this slightly laissez-faire attitude of, “Oh, yeah. I’ve had it.”

Clarissa Ward:

I remember getting into a taxi when I was in Moscow in December and asking the driver to put a mask on. He was like [foreign language 00:12:31] meaning it’s not necessary, and I was like, “Well, I’d prefer if you did.”

Clarissa Ward:

He was like, “I’ve already had it.”

Clarissa Ward:

So, that’s the attitude there. It’s like people do the gesture of they wear the mask when they go into the restaurant, but people are not really overly preoccupied with it in the way that they are on other parts of the world.

Preet Bharara:

Were you surprised that there were so many White male Republicans in Russia?

Clarissa Ward:

No comment.

Preet Bharara:

You don’t have to answer that question. That was a joke for me and based on actual polling in the United States of America. I want to come back to some of the places you’ve been and where you may be going after this interview. I want to go back to your origins and discuss how it is you came to see this as your role. You’re writing your book, great book, On All Fronts: The Education of A Journalist. You write about that with some intimacy. You were in college at Yale University when the planes hit the buildings of the World Trade Center on 9/11. What did that do to you?

Clarissa Ward:

I mean, even just hearing you say it now, it still, I’m just taken back to that moment and your whole world just flips upside down in a second. For me, it became clear that, “Okay. Everything I’ve been interested in and working on and studying is nice, but not important,” right? The only important thing in the world to me right now is understanding how on Earth this happened, what inspired such a grotesque act of violence? What levels of miscommunication and misunderstanding are we talking about in the world that something like this can transpire.

Clarissa Ward:

So, I became very preoccupied with this idea that I needed to go there wherever there was. I was a little foggy on the details, but I needed to travel to the frontlines to understand how this had happened, to try to communicate that back to the US and also in the process to try to communicate some of what the US is actually about and what the people are about to these far-flung frontline locales that at that stage were still vague or murky to me. This idea of being a communicator felt like a profound epiphany. Yeah. It stayed with me ever since.

Preet Bharara:

That’s interesting because 9/11 affected a lot of people’s career decisions, career paths. For some, some people enlisted in the armed services. Some people who I know and have spoken to decided to become law enforcement agents or do other things. It’s interesting. Why were you focused so much on the why and the explanation? Was there something in your education or upbringing up to that point that led you in that direction?

Clarissa Ward:

Yeah. I think it’s a combination of things. Firstly, I always knew I was a storyteller, right? That was very clear to me. I thought I wanted to be an actress when I was younger, and I always love traveling. My father is British. My mother is American. I was born in London. Then I moved to the US. Then I moved back to the UK. Then I moved back to the US. My dad moved to Hong Kong when I was 14. So, we would spend all our summers in Asia.

Clarissa Ward:

So, I always had this sense of being comfortable everywhere and not really at home anywhere, which I think is probably the fundamental quality that is required of a foreign correspondent. It’s being able to survive, be a chameleon in any far-flung location, but not necessarily feeling wedded to being at one particular place.

Preet Bharara:

Do you go crazy if you’re in one place for too long?

Clarissa Ward:

I do. I do. Even I thought maybe that would change having children, but interestingly enough, no. I’m not built for that. I did three months in London this year during the peak of the British second lockdown, and it was challenging for me. I struggled with that.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, I can see that. I was thinking about the fall and plans with my own family. This was yesterday. We’re recording this on Monday morning, April 26th. I was thinking this on Sunday night. For the first time, it dawned on me in a real way that in just a few months, we’ll have the 20th anniversary of 9/11. You were discussing a minute ago how that started you on your path of being a foreign correspondent. Do you have any preliminary thoughts about how we should be thinking about the 20th anniversary, what it means, how you will feel about it?

Clarissa Ward:

It’s such a good question, Preet. I think that it’s always frustrating because when you meet a lot of younger people, and they were either not even alive when 9/11 happened or they’re only dimly aware of it, they don’t remember what the world was like or have a concept of what the world was like pre-9/11, which always makes me a little sad because I do think it felt like a different place.

Clarissa Ward:

I also feel like there’s such important lessons to be learned from the whole war on terror and the legacy of that. Now, we’re in a moment where a lot of that stands to be forgotten because our attention has been moved to other more pressing arguably issues. I’m just hopeful that we can take a moment collectively to reflect on the lessons learned from 9/11, the lessons learned from the endless ensuing wars, and the very cold, harsh reality of what awaits people in Afghanistan now that the US is going to be withdrawing its forces by 9/11.

Preet Bharara:

You’ve anticipated my next question. It was going to be given the withdrawal of troops and that decision made by Joe Biden, what is the feeling based on your understanding on the ground in Afghanistan, and how do you think they’re thinking about it?

Clarissa Ward:

So, a lot of it depends who you talk to. Last year, I spent a few days actually embedded with the Taliban, which was a real education for me as a journalist. Obviously, it’s been basically impossible to have access to the Taliban. They allowed us to spend time in their territory. They’ve been very pragmatic and very clear-eyed on what their goal is here, which was always to get the US to leave.

Clarissa Ward:

When it comes to the commitments that they were willing to agree to in order to facilitate the withdrawal of US troops, I think there are two major ones. One is that Afghanistan would not once again become a harbor or safe haven for terrorists, Al-Qaeda in 2001. The second is the idea of power sharing with the Afghan government and finding consensus or compromise.

Clarissa Ward:

On the former issue, I would say that the Taliban is committed to that. They don’t want to have terrorists once again use their country as a safe haven because they don’t want there to be any reason for the US to potentially intervene or invade again. On the second issue, I think it’s much, much murkier. I didn’t see any evidence spending time with the Taliban that they’re actually interested in real cooperation, nor that their ideology and their goal to create an Islamic emirate has fundamentally shifted.

Clarissa Ward:

So, that means if you’re from Afghanistan’s small burgeoning middle class, if you live in one of the big cities in Afghanistan, you’re probably understandably and certainly from what the people I’ve spoken to deeply, deeply concerned and frightened of what the world will look like in Afghanistan after the US withdraws.

Preet Bharara:

Do you have any reaction to the symbolism of that troop withdrawal being completed by 9/11, the 20th anniversary of the terrorist attack?

Clarissa Ward:

I mean, it’s not really for me to comment on that in terms of what my opinion is. I mean, I would say that, look, it’s profound symbolism, and it begs the question of, what was it all for? What was achieved? 20 years, what have we done? How many lives have been lost? Not just US lives, by the way, Afghan lives. Where does it leave us now? Especially if the US leaves and the Taliban essentially comes back to power in one form or another in the coming years, I do think there are some profound existential questions there that need to be asked.

Preet Bharara:

Well, we’ll get to those in a future episode perhaps. So, you say quite casually, “I was embedded with the Taliban,” and you’ve been embedded with rebel groups in other countries, and that’s a nice verb to use. I guess when people are listening to that, they’re thinking, “How the hell does that happen?” So, I’m going to ask you, how the hell does that happen?

Clarissa Ward:

Well, it happens in a number of ways. Usually, it’s about finding the gatekeeper, right? So, I have always been very preoccupied with trying to get to places that other people can’t get to and have conversations with people who I’m told we can’t talk to, whether it’s because they’re terrorists or fundamentalists or whatever the case might be. I’m very much of the view that it’s really important as journalists that everybody gets a hearing and that we would tell their stories as well because it only enriches and enhances our understanding of the bigger picture.

Clarissa Ward:

So, with the Taliban, for example, I found an Afghan filmmaker who had interviewed them before. I invited him out to lunch in London, and I said I want to go and embed with the Taliban. He actually laughed and he was like, “You’re crazy,” but by the-

Preet Bharara:

That might be a natural reaction for-

Clarissa Ward:

Yeah, but by the end of lunch, I think he understood that I was really serious and that I was very committed to it, an that I was willing to have the serious conversation to show the Taliban that this wasn’t some flip and whimsical thing, that they would be in good faith, and that I would tell their side of the story, and I would be fair, which, obviously, are what we always aspire to do, anyway. So, it actually took longer to persuade CNN than it took to persuade the Taliban.

Preet Bharara:

The second time you’ve anticipated my question. We’re colleagues at CNN. It’s one thing to embed in the Taliban. Yeah. So, how does that go with the corporate entity? They’re worried, obviously, about your safety.

Clarissa Ward:

Yes, and they should be, and it’s really important to have those checks and balances in place because someone like me is always going to get carried away and want to go and do these very ambitious stories. It’s really good to have that person in security being like, “How are we going to do this? Who’s the person we contact if this happens? What is the area? What’s the terrain? What’s the weather? What’s the agreement? What measure of trust do we have on these people? How do we know if they are who they really say they are?”

Clarissa Ward:

So, it took months, honestly. It took months to go through all the hoops, but they were hoops that were well worth going through because when we did go in the end, we really felt that we were doing it in the safest possible way.

Preet Bharara:

Is there some greater ease every time you do something like this that’s dangerous because you emerge unscathed or do you have the same level of concern and does CNN have the same level of concern every time?

Clarissa Ward:

Yeah. I would say I have it the opposite way around. The more I do this, the more scared I get.

Preet Bharara:

Interesting. Why is that?

Clarissa Ward:

Yeah, because, listen. Yes, we did the trip and it was a success and it was I think a really interesting and important report, but there were a few moments which were utterly terrifying. We were driving along with the Taliban in this convoy with them on their motorcycles with their white flags billowing and their nasheed music playing, and we saw this group of helicopters in the distance, and you’re like, “Okay. If those are US helicopters, then the last thing I want to be doing right now is hanging out in a Taliban convoy.”

Clarissa Ward:

On our second day there, they staged this ridiculous show of force for us with about at least 30 or 40 Taliban fighters. Again, this is like you’re begging for a drone strike by doing something so reckless. We were urging them in the moment like, “Please disband,” and then we just left and left their territory entirely.

Clarissa Ward:

So, you always have a couple of those moments where you have pit of fear in your stomach, where you’re humbled, and where you’re reminded that it doesn’t matter how often you do this, how experienced you are, how hard you’ve worked to crack the safe. It’s different every time. There’s dangers every time. There’s challenges every time. You’ve got to be sharp. You’ve got to be alert, and you’ve got to stay on your A game.

Preet Bharara:

How much are you coordinating with American officials? Are they aware of your movements, the embassy and others?

Clarissa Ward:

Yeah. So, on something like this, it’s a really good question, and it’s something that we thought about. On something like this, no, because if I’m telling the Taliban that we’re coming in good faith, but then I’ve also told the US military, for example, that we’re going to meet with the Taliban and this is where we’re going to be, and so then the US military can track us, and that raises ethical implications.

Clarissa Ward:

So, in this instance, no, we did not. There will be others where we maybe would because there wouldn’t be the same ethical implications, but for this one, it was really important that nobody knew we were going.

Preet Bharara:

When you embed, for example, with the Taliban, let’s keep talking about that example, and you can mention others if you want, how many humans with you?

Clarissa Ward:

Well, for me, personally, and everyone has a different approach to this, I like to go really low profile. It’s one of the blessings counter to what most people assume of being a woman in this part of the world or in some conservative parts of the Middle East. I can cover my body in a black abaya. I can cover my face in a black niqab, and I’m no longer a White Western female journalist, right? I’m just part of the background. No one’s really even looking at me anymore.

Clarissa Ward:

So, with the Taliban, I traveled with a female producer. I had also traveled with her undercover in Syria before. We were basically a two-woman team and we worked with a local Afghan filmmaker and in Syria also we worked with a local filmmaker, which, for me, personally, I believe that that is a hugely important thing because the primary risk that we were looking at was kidnapping. So, if you’re worried about kidnapping, you want to go low profile, and if you want to go low profile, you can’t have big burley Western men, much as I love them, and these security consultants come on many other trips with me and are incredibly helpful, but for an assignment like this, it just wouldn’t make sense.

Preet Bharara:

So, you mentioned how you can camouflage yourself more easily because you’re a woman. What about with respect to other things, embedding, getting people to talk to you, getting people to take you seriously? Is being a Western woman a hindrance or a help?

Clarissa Ward:

I’ve always found it to be a help. I tell you why, Preet. It can be a real blessing to be consistently underestimated.

Preet Bharara:

Yes, indeed.

Clarissa Ward:

So, people tend to see you, depending on where you are, but in some of these very conservative or even fundamentalist places that we’re talking about, people tend to see me less of a threat and more of as a curiosity, “Wow! She has a very indulgent husband. She’s clearly very eccentric.” It’s this sort of attitude as opposed to-

Preet Bharara:

I think you’re crazy a little bit.

Clarissa Ward:

They think I’m a little crazy, and I think my husband’s super crazy because I can’t do anything without my husband’s permission, but they don’t necessarily think, “She’s a spy,” or “She’s a mercenary,” or something like that, which my Western male colleagues would face those kinds of suspicions a lot more.

Clarissa Ward:

Not only that, and this is the really key issue, I get to chill with the women. I get to sit in the women’s part of the house and spend time with them and understand their take on a conflict, see a war through their eyes, and that is a radically different experience than talking to the men often who are waging war. I believe it’s fundamental to get those voices into our reporting as well to give a more nuanced and deeper understanding of what war actually looks and feels like in these places.

Preet Bharara:

Well, so talk about that. Is there a trend that you notice when you talk to the women in Myanmar or Syria or in Afghanistan that is striking to you? Are they just like women everywhere whose husbands are at war?

Clarissa Ward:

I think in Syria and Afghanistan, what was particularly striking to me, and what I think is really important and often gets lost in a lot of reporting on war is that these women are focused on survival. They’re focused on their children. They’re focused on getting through the day. They are pillars of strength in their community. Their resilience is extraordinary, but they are often less consumed by the kind of minutia of the geopolitics of any one given conflict.

Clarissa Ward:

I sometimes say and I recognize that it can sound a literally hokey, but I really think I’m onto something here. That human perspective on war is so fundamental because it shifts the way perhaps we think about wars. It shifts the way perhaps wars are started, and too often in the past, those voices have been ignored or dismissed, and I think they are really hugely vital in terms of, yeah, possibly even preventing war in the future.

Clarissa Ward:

That may sound like a stretch, but I really do believe it. Women need to be covering war, mothers need to be covering war, and the voices of women and mothers, particularly in war zones, really need to be out front in terms of our reporting.

Preet Bharara:

This is a question I think Western people have, not necessarily fully appreciating how many daily challenges people have in some of those places that you’ve been, but the question is, how much are these women thinking about their rights as women and becoming equal to men in terms of opportunity and everything else?

Clarissa Ward:

Listen. There’s no question that we have all these preconceived ideas and values and they’re important values, and we should be proud of these values, but when you go in to some countries in the world, you have to be willing to leave your judgment at the door because what you quickly understand is that the values that you might hold dear are not necessarily the values that other people in other places in the world aspire to.

Clarissa Ward:

That is particularly true, I would say, with regards to women’s rights or women’s rights in the context in which we understand it in the West. I do find often in countries that I’ve visited that there are women who are exhausted by some of the misogyny that they encounter, by their own frustrations not being allowed to continue their education, for example, but that’s not the rule at all.

Clarissa Ward:

I also meet many women who feel quite emphatically that they don’t like the way women in the West dress or behave or have multiple partners. That’s not what they’re aspiring to. That’s not what they’re interested in. So, I do think it’s important for all of us to be a little bit humble sometimes and understand that the people have different values and that that’s okay, but, of course, when we’re talking about things like domestic abuse, when we’re talking about things like women being pulled out of school when they hit puberty, when we’re talking about women not having such a seat at the table and not being able to have their voices heard and not being able to participate in their own future in some communities, then you do hear even on the ground from a lot of those women that, of course, they would dream of something better than that.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. You said something I think very important. Obviously, it’s central to how you do your job, and that is you go to these places and you withhold judgment, at least obvious judgment. I have two questions. One is, is that hard? Have you found that there were times when you slid into judgment in the way you asked a question or the way you reacted to a response? Then second, is it more deeply embedded in you that you’re just less judgmental as a person because that’s how you do your job?

Clarissa Ward:

I’m going to answer the second question first. You definitely become less judgmental when you do this work, right? You’re sitting and whether it’s with the Taliban or rebel fighters in Syria or supporters of autocratic regimes in other countries in the world, you realize that people are human, and people make decisions and do terrible things for many different confluence of reasons that makes it very difficult to judge. It doesn’t mean that you can’t recognize evil when you see it, but it does mean that evil is much more complex and often, frankly, much more banal thing than we maybe would expect or imagine from movies and books that we read and see about wars.

Clarissa Ward:

So, yes, I am on some level a less judgmental person. I understand that the way we grow up and the way we live has a huge impact on our behavior, and that doesn’t necessarily make us a good person or a bad person. It makes us a product of who we are and where came from.

Preet Bharara:

Does that make you in anyway a more understanding parent?

Clarissa Ward:

That’s such a good question.

Preet Bharara:

It just occurred to me. Wow. It would be interesting to know if-

Clarissa Ward:

I think it will. I think it will. They’re little at the moment, my boys. They’re nine months and three years old. So, they’re still small, but I do think it will because I’m definitely very open-minded, but then maybe it will be really tough for me if they choose a super conservative, generic path. I’ll be like, “Wait, there’s so much out there to explore.” Maybe I’ll be judgmental in the other way.

Preet Bharara:

Well, do you want them … That’s interesting. Do you want them … There are people who love their profession, but they don’t wish their profession on their children. It’s an interesting thing because it’s either dangerous or it doesn’t pay enough or it’s a thankless job, and then there are people who do their work and they do wish it upon their children. Which one are you?

Clarissa Ward:

I wouldn’t wish the danger part on my children, definitely not, but I would wish the part of traveling the world, forging connections, engaging, educating yourself, and basically listening. I don’t think as a society, not to go on a tangent, that we do enough listening. I think we see it somehow as a mark of weakness, and we’re all about talking but not so much about listening. So, if I can get my kids to be good listeners in whatever capacity they feel is appropriate for them, then I’ll be happy with that.

Preet Bharara:

Oh, I agree with you. When I speak to graduating law students or young lawyers, I say, “If you want to be a good lawyer, learn how to talk. If you want to be a great lawyer, learn how to listen.”

Clarissa Ward:

That’s a good one. Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

I think that’s true in lots and lots of professions.

Preet Bharara:

We’ll be right back to my interview with Clarissa Ward after this.

Preet Bharara:

What’s the most dangerous place you’ve been or where you felt most insecure?

Clarissa Ward:

Yeah. I would say Syria in rebel-held territory because the rebels, obviously, did not have the experience of fighting, that they were really able to offer you any measure of protection when you’re embedded with them. I’ve been in a few hairy situations with them, particularly, at the beginning of the uprising when they didn’t even have two-way radios.

Clarissa Ward:

That said, I’ve been in some very dangerous situations in Iraq during the US war there. I survived a triple suicide car bombing attack on our hotel at the Palestine. So, there have been many different dangerous situations, but the most dangerous place, definitely covering the Syrian civil war.

Preet Bharara:

Even when you narrowly survived a bombing like that, you don’t think about hanging up your hat.

Clarissa Ward:

I think you do. I mean, it’s a strange thing because the bombing that I survived I was only 25 years old. So, I really was a puppy. It was one of my first trips to Iraq. Everything that I thought or imagined I knew about war was largely influenced by news and the movies and books. In that moment, you realize that that’s all nonsense in the sense that there is nothing glamorous about war. There’s nothing really exciting about war. It really is hell. It’s terror. It’s that acrid bile of fear in the back of your throat.

Clarissa Ward:

So, yes, that’s a real wake up call, but once you survive it, and this is the key point, when you are retelling the story of surviving it, there’s a barrier, there’s a veil between you now and the original you in the moment of fearing death, and there is also an exhilaration that kicks in with having survived. That can be quite intoxicating. I have never been someone who’s an adrenaline junkie, and I’ve certainly been chastened by the most dangerous experiences I’ve had and they’ve made me want to be more cautious and avoid being directly on the frontlines, which I actually don’t enjoy anything. When there’s bullets flying in the air, I’m deeply petrified.

Preet Bharara:

You’re not into that?

Clarissa Ward:

I’m not, really, partly because I think there’s people who are naturally good at anything. They’d be a good soldier. They know when to duck. They know when to run. I’m terrible at running. I’m goofy. I’m a little clumsy.

Preet Bharara:

Do you undertake any kind of training, self-defense training, fighting training, survival training or anything else?

Clarissa Ward:

Yes. We do hazardous environment training, and you have to do it regularly to keep it up. That’s teaching you the basics of what do you do if there’s incoming artillery, right? You duck for cover. What do you do if there’s any, even if it’s light arms fire? Take cover. The most important thing you learn is the medical, the basic medical necessities like learning how to tie a tourniquet or if you have the proper medic kit, learning how to treat a sucking chest wound or something.

Preet Bharara:

Just ordinary things like that?

Clarissa Ward:

Well, yeah. I mean, that’s the stuff that you got to keep practicing because, God forbid, you ever do find yourself in that situation, I’m not going to be the person who’d let someone on my team bleed out because I can’t remember how to tie a tourniquet. That’s just not happening.

Preet Bharara:

Do you have firearms training?

Clarissa Ward:

No. No, we don’t. I’ve been offered it not any security consultants I’ve worked with, but when I used to go out with the US military back in the day in Iraq, they would often be like, “Hey, do you want to shoot off a few rounds?” or whatever. I have always been petrified of guns, which I realized sounds a little bit counterintuitive, and I also feel really strongly that I just don’t want to touch a gun. For me, that’s a red line as a journalist.

Preet Bharara:

That’s so interesting, right? I mean, you said it, “Well, I think we shouldn’t have …” and yet you hang out with people who use guns all the time, and partly what you’re doing is talking to them and trying to understand why they’re using their guns.

Clarissa Ward:

Yes. I guess part of the reason maybe that let me talk to them a lot of the time is because I don’t have a gun and because I’m not part of any fight, really, in that sense, but it has occurred to me as well that it would be at least useful to know how to shoot a gun so that if I found myself in a really terrible situation, I could defend myself, but there’s something holding me back from doing it. Honestly, i don’t even like to touch them.

Preet Bharara:

Interesting. Do you do other extreme sports, not that this is a sport? Do you jump out of airplanes? Do you bungee jump?

Clarissa Ward:

No. No. I mean, this is why-

Preet Bharara:

You just come close to death only in your journalism work.

Clarissa Ward:

I really, as I said before, I really try to avoid it. I’m much more interested in talking to people than getting shot at, especially now that I have children. I really take the risk very seriously. I’m not a particularly brave person, and I’m not at all an adventurist, sporty person, but I just love talking to people, and I guess I’m willing to go to some pretty wacky places to do it.

Preet Bharara:

Is that normal in your line of work? In other words, you must have colleagues over the years who take the same risks that you take and embed in these difficult situations. Do they tend to be like you or do they tend to be people who bungee jump?

Clarissa Ward:

There’s definitely some bungee jumpers, and I would say, I’m speaking euphemistically, obviously, and I would say that they’re braver than I am, and they’re doing the really, really crazy frontline stuff, the super risky, but ultimately incredibly compelling reporting. So, there’s definitely a mixture and that’s good.

Clarissa Ward:

Then you also have, listen, traditionally, my career path is also a lot of troubled souls are drawn to it, and a lot of people who struggle with the very real toll that this work can take on you, and who struggle with substance abuse or the breakdown of relationships. I mean, we see it over and over again. It’s not an easy job to do, which is part of why I wrote the book was we need to not glamorize this. We need to make it clear that it’s really challenging and there should be a much more transparent conversation around the emotional toll.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. I mean, you’re very open. You talk about the need for therapy. Is that part of the same intent?

Clarissa Ward:

Yes. I mean, it’s still a taboo even now in this society, which is so much more open-minded and progressive. It’s still in the journalism world a little bit of a taboo to talk about therapy. My answer to that is always if you are doing this work and going to these place and seeing these unbelievably traumatic things and you don’t need to see a therapist, then you-

Preet Bharara:

Maybe that’s the problem.

Clarissa Ward:

That’s the problem, right? I always tell young people as well who are starting out in this field because you do feel a little bit invincible when you’re younger. I remind them like, “Listen. At some point, the check comes. The check is coming, okay? You’re not getting this one for free. It doesn’t always come right after you see the dead baby, right? It’s not always a linear chronological processing of trauma, but it will come in the end. So, you best be ready for it.”

Preet Bharara:

I want to talk about one of the places that you have recently been, and then talk about where you’re going. One of the places that you’ve recently been is a country called Myanmar, country of about 54 million people, borders a number of countries in Asia, including the country of my birth, India. Tell folks why you went there and what the circumstances were.

Clarissa Ward:

So, Myanmar for more than half a century was very, very introverted country under a repressive military regime, this military junta, who have been in-charge for a long time until about 10 years ago when they opened up the constitution to allow for this democratically elected government to take power and enter into a power sharing agreement.

Clarissa Ward:

It’s incredible. Overnight, Myanmar started to change, and particularly in the last five years. They became one of the fastest growing economies in Southeast Asia. They were super engaged with the rest of the world. All of the Gen Zedders were on Facebook and social media, and very interactive, very plugged in. This was a really exciting place to spend time.

Clarissa Ward:

Then back in November, there were elections, and the NLD Party, which is the party under Aung San Suu Kyi, won a tremendous victory. The military party, the USDP actually suffered a humiliating defeat. The junta suddenly got cold feet and they worry that they were not going to be able to go through with their plan for a lot of them when they had to retire to take jobs in politics, basically.

Clarissa Ward:

So, on January 31st, they staged a coup and they threw the NLD out of power, put Aung San Suu Kyi and the president under house arrest, and that led to the swell of huge protest, huge. I mean, we’re talking millions of people. They took to the streets. That then led to this brutal crack down. The military started trying, at first, peacefully to disperse them and then they just resorted to brute force. More than 700 people have been killed as a result. The vast majority of them are pro-democracy protesters. The UN estimates over 40 children are among the dead, and thousands and thousands have been arrested. They’re carrying out raids every night trying to essentially purge society of this pro-democratic movement, which is basically impossible to do because the vast majority of people in Myanmar want democracy. They don’t support the military.

Clarissa Ward:

So, that was the story that I saw playing out, and I became obsessed with trying to get there even though the junta had closed the country off completely to outside journalists since the coup.

Preet Bharara:

So, how did you get in?

Clarissa Ward:

So, we approached, they had hired a media consultant, an Israeli-Canadian man.

Preet Bharara:

Who’s they?

Clarissa Ward:

The junta, sorry. The junta-

Preet Bharara:

As juntas do.

Clarissa Ward:

As juntas do.

Preet Bharara:

Everyone needs a media consultant.

Clarissa Ward:

Every junta needs a spin doctor, and so they hired this man, Ari Ben-Menashe, and we approached him and said, “Listen. We want to go to Myanmar, and we want to tell the story of what’s happening there,” and he took our request to the junta. Within a matter of weeks, we had our visas and we were on the ground.

Clarissa Ward:

It was a little bit unnerving because along the way, we became the story. I tweeted a picture of my boarding pass and because the people of Myanmar are so desperate to get the world engaged with what’s happening in their country, this went completely viral, and before you knew it, I was the subject of every meme. People were messaging me, thousands and thousands of messages, taking pictures of us wherever we went.

Preet Bharara:

How did you feel about that?

Clarissa Ward:

It’s always very uncomfortable when you become the story, right? It’s not what you want, but-

Preet Bharara:

The point is not to be part of the story.

Clarissa Ward:

The point is not to be part of the story. The point is to be able to stand back and observe the story and be part of the wallpaper, ideally. However, in this case, given that we were the only journalists who had been allowed to fly in from outside and given that the local journalists in Myanmar who have been extraordinarily brave and important risking their lives to do this work, but they’re not able to go and confront the junta for their own security reasons.

Clarissa Ward:

So, it made sense in that context that the eyes of many people in this nation would be firmly fixed on us as, “You need to be our surrogate. You need to hold these people’s feet to the fire. You need to ask them why they’re killing us like this. You need to ask them where this killing ends. You need to make them realize that we won’t accept the junta.”

Preet Bharara:

That’s a problem because as we’ve been discussing, from your perspective, that desire on their part is completely inconsistent with the mode of not being judgmental and just listening, right?

Clarissa Ward:

Yes. I mean, you have to make it clear to all sides that your job fundamentally is as a communicator. When I say that you shouldn’t be judgmental, it’s not to say that if you have proof that a group or an organization or a government or a military has been engaging in torture, beatings, extrajudicial killings, then you are absolutely in a position where you need to hold people accountable, and you need to challenge, and you need to follow up that question with another challenging question. You can’t give an inch, and that is really important that you don’t lose your cool. You don’t start shouting at them. You don’t start lecturing them because when you’ve done that, you’ve lost the battle. Whether it’s Al-Qaeda or the Taliban or the Myanmar junta, I am not going through that interview without holding some feet to the fire.

Preet Bharara:

Given how viral things ended up, are there things that in retrospect you would have handled differently?

Clarissa Ward:

That’s such a good question. Listen. We had this terrible experience. We went to shoot some video in a market and we had not been allowed to really shoot video in public spaces. So, we were hanging back because we’re surrounded by security, and everyone could see we had soldiers, we had police, we had plane close, guys filming our every move on their iPhones, but we started shooting video on this market, and within a few seconds, this man just stands in front of us and holds up his three fingers, the Hunger Games salute that’s become emblematic of the resistance movement in Myanmar.

Clarissa Ward:

We were like, “Okay. What’s happening?”

Clarissa Ward:

Then he comes up to us and I said, “Why did you do that?”

Clarissa Ward:

He says, “We want justice.”

Clarissa Ward:

Then another man comes up to us, then a woman runs up to us, and then before you know it, the whole market start banging their pots and pans, which is an ancient tradition in Myanmar to ward off evil spirits, but it’s become, again, like the Hunger Games salute. It’s like the signature sound of this pro-democracy movement.

Clarissa Ward:

It was incredibly moving, and also incredibly frightening because I knew these people were going to get into trouble for this, right? We were surrounded by security forces. Sure enough, they were arrested.

Clarissa Ward:

Now, we lobbied like crazy, and we were able to secure their release or we know eight of them were released, for sure. That’s the kind of thing where, of course, you grapple with that. Of course, you sit there and go, “What should we have done differently?” At the end of the day, these people who came up to us, they wanted their story told. They wanted their voice heard. It’s extraordinary courage to do something like that.

Clarissa Ward:

I wouldn’t feel right to sensor or silence that voice because I deem it better for them. I feel like I have an obligation to let that person who is a grown adult make their own decision and get their story on the record, and then the best I can do is continue to follow up after we’ve left and we were sure that they had been released, we continued to follow up with them and to make sure that they haven’t face any further repercussions for their extraordinarily brave actions.

Preet Bharara:

You’ve addressed this a little bit, but last question on this point. What do you make of some criticism from folks in the West who have said that what you and your colleagues did in Myanmar was “parachute journalism”?

Clarissa Ward:

Hmm. I think that there’s a really important discussion to have about parachute journalism and all the dynamics that come with that in a separate forum. For me, in this particular context, it was a real distraction from the real story, which was the suffering of the people in Myanmar, the horror and brutality of this crack down, and the extraordinary bravery of these people who want their story told. I know that the vast majority of people inside Myanmar felt that way, too.

Clarissa Ward:

I also think it was a little unfair because if you look at the broader picture, CNN has been covering the Myanmar story regularly for months now working with local journalists, working with other journalists based in Asia. My visit and my trip was just one piece of the puzzle. It ended up getting a lot of attention because no one else was there, but it certainly wasn’t the only component in our coverage of this story.

Preet Bharara:

What do you think the future holds for the people of Myanmar, generally? I know it’s a big question, but then also, specifically, and we haven’t talked about this yet, for the Muslim minority, the Rohingya, who have been subjected to massive persecution, mass killing, gang rape. What does the future hold for the folks of that country?

Clarissa Ward:

Yeah. It’s such a good question, and the Rohingya story is one that I care deeply about as well and covered several years ago when I was actually pregnant with my first son in Bangladesh. So, my real fear, Preet, is that there’s going to be a civil war in Myanmar, and the reason I say that is largely based on my experiences in Syria, which are that when you have a civilian population that is willing to march into a hail of bullets, to demand dignity, and to demand democracy, and you also have a brutal regime that is willing to kill its way into victory, that is willing to destroy its country in order to protect its own interest, and then finally, you have a largely hamstrung and impotent international community on the sidelines ringing their hands and issuing condemnations but not able to deliver the kind of robust response that might provide some exit ramp, then you are unfortunately, I feel, careening down a path which can end in civil war.

Clarissa Ward:

I also look in Myanmar, particularly, at the complexity of these different ethnic armies that are already armed, obviously. Some young protesters are currently we know receiving training with some of these ethnic militias. So, again, that raises the specter of this becoming further militarized.

Clarissa Ward:

What the pro-democracy movement is talking about now and the shadow government, if you like, the CPRH, is talking about this idea of setting up a federal union in the future in Myanmar, and if they can take their country back from the military. This is something that the ethnic groups have been asking for for a very long time, and this would potentially, hopefully, empower groups like the Rohingya and give them a much better shot at a decent future than what they’ve had up until now.

Preet Bharara:

Do you think you will go back?

Clarissa Ward:

I very much hope to go back. I don’t think that I’ll be invited back by the military anytime soon. I think that’s safe to say, but I’m always looking at different ways and I have a story coming out tonight, on Monday night about Myanmar. I will continue to keep covering that story. I think it’s a story that Americans, it’s far away, and it may not be a country that many Americans have real experience or knowledge of, but fundamentally on a symbolic level, I feel like this is a story that a lot of Americans can relate to.

Preet Bharara:

So, turning to where you’re going next, a spy told me that you are flying to India, and by the time this podcast drops, you will be there. I presume it’s to cover the rapidly deteriorating situation with respect to coronavirus.

Clarissa Ward:

It is.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. Just by way of background, if people haven’t been paying full attention, I had lunch with an Indian official just a few weeks in New York during which there was a discussion of how well India was doing and how a few dozen were attributable to a couple of things, including some structural aspects of the population there. One is there’s not that much obesity as there are in some Western countries like the United States. Second, I was told fully 50% of the population is under 25, and younger people have a greater resistance to COVID.

Preet Bharara:

As you know, my family is from India. My dad has been telling me over the weekend, and my dad’s a medical doctor, he’s been talking to doctor friends who he still knows in India, and it’s just a complete and unmitigated disaster. Do you have any understanding about what happened and what you hope to learn?

Clarissa Ward:

Well, I think that the first thing we want to do is just try to convey viewers around the world the scope and scale of the disaster, and then the next step becomes to ask the hard questions, “How did this happen, and to what extent does Modi bear responsibility for it?” I hear people in India talking a lot, criticizing his handling of the crisis, saying that he was too focused on these local elections, and allowing rallies to be-

Preet Bharara:

The big rallies, yeah.

Clarissa Ward:

Allowing those big rallies, particularly in West Bengal, because of concerns that the BJP might not do well in these states. So, obviously, one has to look very closely at that. I had another friend in India who I was talking to, which I thought was interesting, and she was making the point of … She says, “This is not different from the US and President Trump’s response to COVID or lack of a robust response.”

Preet Bharara:

… or Bolsonaro.

Clarissa Ward:

… or Bolsonaro. Exactly. So, obviously, it’s very difficult for me to make that judgment based on sitting here from my porch in London, but certainly, when we’re on the ground, that’s what we hope to really dig in to, not just talking to people in politics, but to some of the medical professionals themselves, epidemiologists. What were the warnings that were ignored? What were the measures that should have been taken? Is hindsight always 20/20 or are there real serious failings here?

Clarissa Ward:

I’m also very interested, and I think it’s pretty clear from what I’ve heard that there were serious failings. It’s just a question of trying to drill down on what they were. I think another really important part of the story is what level of truth do the numbers represent. There are all sorts of reports indicating that the actual numbers in India are even much higher than the numbers that are being put out there, which are already biblical proportions.

Preet Bharara:

My dad says he thinks, I mean, I don’t know what the official figures are as to how many thousands of deaths per day, but my dad’s view is it’s multiple times that. They don’t have enough crematoriums, literally.

Clarissa Ward:

They’re literally using parking lots because there aren’t enough crematoria. They were a reported nearly one million cases in three days, nearly one million cases in three days, new cases. It’s just mind-blowing. It beggars belief.

Clarissa Ward:

So, my heart goes out to people in India and talking to colleagues and friends there, it’s a desperate situation. Everybody has somebody or knows somebody who has been sick or is suffering. People are crowdsourcing on Twitter to try to find oxygen for their loved ones or a shot of Remdesivir. It’s a desperate situation. That’s why we need to go and cover it.

Preet Bharara:

What’s your sense, if any, of how much pressure there was on the US government to provide assistance? In the social media sphere, it seemed there was a lot of frustration. I commented on it. A lot of other Indian-Americans commented on it, members of congress and others. Do you have any view of that or a sense of that?

Clarissa Ward:

I mean, here’s what I will say. I think a lot of people and particularly people who are maybe on social media understand that until people are vaccinated everywhere, no one’s really safe anywhere. This is fundamentally important in terms of understanding the global picture of COVID. It’s tremendous to see these countries like the US, like the UK making great strides with these incredibly successful vaccine programs, but if you still have large pockets of the world that do not have ready access to these vaccines, you’re going to continue to see endless variants emerge, which will then mean because we live in a globally interconnected world that you’re not able to stop this out, that the vaccines will be constantly needed to be updated.

Clarissa Ward:

So, I think as we try to shift our outlook to a more global and less national outlook, hopefully, we’ll only see more of this kind of aid, whether it’s for things like oxygen, whether it’s for things like vaccines. We are literally all in this together, Preet.

Preet Bharara:

Clarissa Ward, thank you for spending the time. Thank you for your service, and good luck on your travels.

Clarissa Ward:

Thank you so much.

Preet Bharara:

The book is On All Fronts: The Education of A Journalist. Thanks again.

Clarissa Ward:

Thank you.

Preet Bharara:

My conversation with Clarissa Ward continues for members of the CAFE Insider community. To try out the membership free for two weeks, head to cafe.com/insider. Again, that’s cafe.com/insider. Well, that’s it for this episode of Stay Tuned. Thanks again to my guest, Clarissa Ward.

Preet Bharara:

If you like what we do, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners find the show. Send me your questions about news, politics, and justice. Tweet them to me, @PreetBharara with the #AskPreet or you can call and leave me a message at 669-247-7338. That’s 669-24-PREET or you can send an email to staytuned@cafe.com.

Preet Bharara:

Stay Tuned is presented by CAFE Studios and the Vox Media Podcast Network. Your host is Preet Bharara. The Executive Producer is Tamara Sepper. The Senior Producer is Adam Waller. The Technical Director is David Tatasciore. The CAFE team is Matthew Billy, David Kurlander, Sam Ozer-Staton, Noa Azulai, Nat Weiner, Jake Kaplan, Jennifer Korn, Chris Boylan, and Sean Walsh. Our music is by Andrew Dost. I’m Preet Bharara. Stay tuned.