Preet Bharara:

From CAFE and the Vox Media Podcast Network, welcome to Stay Tuned. I’m Preet Bharara.

Jen Psaki:

It’s not about winning a fight in the room. I don’t think you do the job as press secretary unless you’ve got a little feisty in you. Otherwise, I don’t know how you would do that job. It’s very easy to get into a back and forth with a person in the room. And to a person, most people said to me, it’s about speaking to the people who are watching at home.

Preet Bharara:

That’s Jen Psaki. She served as the White House Press Secretary for President Biden for the first 16 months of the administration. As chief spokesperson for the President, Psaki was instrumental in messaging for the White House, often amid combative questioning from the press corps. Last year, she joined MSNBC as a political analyst and recently debuted the Sunday program Inside with Jen Psaki. Few people understand President Biden and his political orbit better than Jen Psaki, so I was lucky to speak with her just hours after the President announced his reelection campaign. We discussed the state of the 2024 race, including whether Ron DeSantis’ popularity as a GOP candidate has already peaked. And we look back on Psaki’s tenure in the White House. That’s coming up. Stay tuned.

QUESTION AND ANSWER

This question comes in an email from Charlie who asks, “What’s your reaction to the charges against Alec Baldwin being dropped?” Well, that’s a great question. I’m not shocked. For a lot of reasons, Joyce Vance and I discussed on the CAFE Insider many, many weeks ago. We thought the case was generally weak, suffered from some infirmities. There’s some stranges about some of the charges, and I’ll mention those in a moment. I’m a little bit more surprised about the reason for the dismissal by prosecutors themselves of the charges. Now, you’ll remember their charges arose from a shooting that took place on the set of Alec Baldwin’s film Rust in New Mexico. And he was filming and holding a weapon and shot and killed someone on the set. You’ll recall also that as an initial matter, the DA in the case announced the charges were coming before they even were filed. Then she had to recuse herself. Then another set of prosecutors had to recuse themselves. So you’ve had this matter go through multiple prosecutors.

T is already the case that part of the charges were dropped against Alec Baldwin. There was an enhancement of a particular charge that had to be dropped because the statute it was based on was passed after the conduct in question. In other words, after the shooting. And anybody knows in basic constitutional law, that’s an ex post facto problem, meaning something has to be criminal at the time you engage in the act. You can’t have it become criminal retroactively. So this case has been plagued by difficulties and issues right from the get-go.

What’s a little bit odd to me and surprising to me is that the reason given by the new set of prosecutors for the dismissal of the charges against Alec Baldwin was that new evidence has come to light, that the firearm in question was sufficiently flawed that it could actually have been fired without the pulling of the trigger, which is contrary to what the evidence we were told was before and contrary to what we were told an FBI report concluded. So this case was plagued from the beginning. I think a lot of experts had a consensus that it was a problematic case, and now it’s dropped.

Just to repeat, even before this supposed new evidence came to light, the reason people thought it was weak is that if Alec Baldwin had no basis to know that there was a bullet in the chamber, because a bullet is not supposed to be in the chamber, and further, nobody including the DA was going to be able to theorize or suggest to the jury who put that bullet in the chamber. It’s a weak case because it shows a lack of intent on Alec Baldwin’s part. And the theory was going to be lack of training, lack of proper procedures on the set. And Alec Baldwin was himself, not just an actor in the production but also a producer in connection with the movie. And I get all that, but even before this new evidence came to light, it was a bit of a tough theory. And now when you have evidence that the gun could have just fired on its own without the pulling of the trigger by Alec Baldwin, it sounds like the prosecutors had no choice but to drop it.

This question comes in an email from Myra. “Do you think that the potential overlap between the DOJ and Georgia cases has impacted the pace of the Georgia investigation?” I get some version of this question all the time. And I think I’ve addressed it in the past, but I think it’s worth addressing again. As an initial matter, I really don’t think it’s the case that the Department of Justice is in any serious way coordinating with or interacting with substantially Fani Willis, the DA in Fulton County, Georgia. They have separate mandates. They have separate rules. They have separate grand juries, although there are some overlap with respect to the factual development in each of the matters. January 6th is a much more sprawling, broad, extensive investigation, and only a part of it would involve what’s going on in Georgia. So I don’t think one is telling the other what to do or to hold back or to share information. It’s possible, but as a general matter, I think that’s probably not happening.

So the answer to your question is does the overlap impact the pace of the Georgia investigation? I don’t think that’s true either. It seems that Fani Willis has been proceeding at her own pace. She empaneled many months ago a special grand jury that would produce a report and a recommendation that indictments should be filed. The DA’s office in Fulton County in connection with a motion to unseal that report argued that it should remain sealed for the protection of the rights of the defendants in question or the targets in question. And in any event, indictments were imminent. And we had debated on the show and elsewhere what imminent means. And I think some listeners asked me that question as well, and I thought that meant a matter of weeks.

Well, we now know based on a recent statement by the DA’s office, that indictments will be handed down during the following window, and it’s not immediate. It doesn’t seem imminent. Although maybe to some people, three months to five months is imminent. But she has said that the indictments will come down between July 11th and September 1st, presumably that tracks when a particular grand jury might be empaneled. And she did it in part so that local law enforcement officers and public safety officials could prepare for the eventuality of such indictments being handed down. But I think that timing is dictated by the pace of her own investigation and the procedures and policies with respect to her own grand juries, not because of DOJ.

This question comes in the form of a tweet from Twitter user @vinnietesla who says, “This is the opposite of topical but I’d love to hear you discuss how doing the show and talking to your guests has altered your own views during your time as a podcaster.” Well, that’s a great and thoughtful question, and I’ve had to think about the answer to that question. Well, for one thing, I learned to talk less and listen more. Doing the podcast for five and a half years coming on six years soon has also reinforced for me the importance of preparation. It’s also reinforced for me the importance of as you’re talking less and listening more, to think about what is being said and to respond in the moment. So I think I’ve become a better conversationalist and interviewer.

As for your question about whether or not it’s altered my views, I’m not sure, but I’ll think about this. I’m not sure how much doing this podcast has altered my views so much as doing this podcast has expanded my horizons. It made me think about things and learn about things that I didn’t have much knowledge of. So I’ll tell you a secret. Don’t tell my legal guests who I love and adore, but those are not my favorite guests on the show, people who I have an affinity for but with whom I share a knowledge base. When I talk to lawyers about cases, I tend to know what they’re talking about. I tend to learn some, but it’s not the same as when I have guests on who are experts in fields, at the top of their fields, in areas that I’m unfamiliar with or at least less familiar with.

And I feel like doing this podcast week after week after week has taught me about a lot of things that I have some now facility with that I probably wouldn’t have had I not been in the privileged position of doing Stay Tuned, and more recently, Stay Tuned in Brief, whether that’s relating to the debt ceiling, or medical breakthroughs, or science, or AI, or neurotechnology, or foreign policy, or psychology, or how the brain functions, or interest rates, or the unrest in Mexico, the unrest in Israel, you name it. When I get to talk about those issues with people who are in the top of their field, it makes me think, it makes me learn, and I hope it does the same for you.

THE INTERVIEW

The role of White House press secretary is among the most public-facing and highly scrutinized jobs in all of government. Jen Psaki was President Biden’s first press secretary and was influential in driving the administration’s goals. Jen Psaki, welcome to the show.

Jen Psaki:

Thank you for having me. It’s an honor.

Preet Bharara:

Oh, that’s very nice of you to say. Congratulations on your new show.

Jen Psaki:

Thank you.

Preet Bharara:

We’re going to get to that. We have a lot of things to talk about. My first question, which I’m sure you’ll have seen coming. You get a show. Tucker Carlson loses his show. Is there a connection?

Jen Psaki:

There’s no relationship, by the way.

Preet Bharara:

Are you sure?

Jen Psaki:

I’m pretty sure. Now, I will say that I did do an interview with AOC on Sunday where she called Tucker Carlson out for inciting violence and he was fired the next day. There’s no real connection that I’m tracking, but that did happen.

Preet Bharara:

All right. Maybe you want to reconsider that answer and take credit for something because that’s the way of Washington, is it not?

Jen Psaki:

I guess it is, but I’ve lived here a long time and I’ve survived so far.

Preet Bharara:

We’re going to get to your show a little bit later because there’s some other news I want to talk about. And obviously, your illustrious career at the podium at the White House. But I was starting to say before we started recording, “Come on, Jen.” All this stuff you do, podcasts, et cetera, interviewing people, it’s all easy-peasy, isn’t it, compared to the fire you had to take and the things you had to deal with at the White House podium. Am I right?

Jen Psaki:

Well, sure. There were certain days in the White House when I was going out to brief the press from the podium where I would turn to my team and the room right before you opened the door to go out to the briefing room and say, “Whoo, either this is going to be a barn burner today,” or, “I’m glad I had my Wheaties,” or something like that because you knew before you went in there what it was going to be like most of the time and if it was going to be a bruiser of a day. So I definitely had days like that.

Preet Bharara:

Did you really eat Wheaties?

Jen Psaki:

I don’t mind Wheaties.

Preet Bharara:

Or is that a metaphor?

Jen Psaki:

What I was saying, it’s I feel like it’s a little bit of a metaphor like have your Wheaties. Eat your spinach. Be ready with your strength-

Preet Bharara:

Popeye.

Jen Psaki:

… for what you’re about to face. That’s what I mean. But I also use… Are you a Ted Lasso fan? I feel like-

Preet Bharara:

I am.

Jen Psaki:

… I should know this about you.

Preet Bharara:

I am.

Jen Psaki:

I love Ted Lasso.

Preet Bharara:

I watched the first season twice. I’m caught up on season three.

Jen Psaki:

Oh, it is so good for the soul. Do you remember in the first season when Rebecca, who’s my favorite character, she was about to go into a meeting with all of the male football club, as in soccer but football, owners and she raises her arms above her head and makes herself big and tall?

Preet Bharara:

Yes.

Jen Psaki:

I used to do that before the briefing too sometimes in honor of her, but just to get yourself ready.

Preet Bharara:

I got a question. We’ll get to serious stuff in a moment. Every week, I take questions. And I don’t think I’m going to answer this one, but it just made me think of it what you just said. Someone asked the question, “Would you rather be 14 feet tall or 9 inches tall? And why?”

Jen Psaki:

Wow.

Preet Bharara:

And I don’t know. Wouldn’t everyone pick 14 feet?

Jen Psaki:

Hmm, I am 5’3″. I might go 9 inches.

Preet Bharara:

Really?

Jen Psaki:

You can just move around and be everywhere.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, but you could also get stepped on quite easily.

Jen Psaki:

Well, you’re probably fast if you’re 9 inches tall. 14 feet, I don’t know.

Preet Bharara:

You’re just Ant-Man.

Jen Psaki:

You can’t fit in rooms. You can’t go anywhere. Wait, how tall are you, Preet? I feel like… Are you 6-

Preet Bharara:

5’11”.

Jen Psaki:

Oh, I would’ve really pegged you for 6’3″. I don’t know why.

Preet Bharara:

Oh, well. You’re just the greatest guest ever.

Jen Psaki:

I don’t know why, but I always… As a person who’s been 5’3″, well, for my whole life at my tallest, I do, I’m always fascinated by super tall people and what they eat and what they can see into in the-

Preet Bharara:

Wheaties.

Jen Psaki:

… refrigerators.

Preet Bharara:

It’s a lot of Wheaties.

Jen Psaki:

Maybe I didn’t have enough Wheaties or milk. That’s really the answer.

Preet Bharara:

We’re recording this. I want to timestamp it. Late afternoon Eastern Time on Tuesday, April 25th. And so what I must ask you about first is the Biden presidential announcement. And now I think it’s the case that you said fairly recently that you thought it was smart that Biden hadn’t yet announced, and then he announces.

Jen Psaki:

Yep, yeah.

Preet Bharara:

What do you think about the wisdom of the timing?

Jen Psaki:

Do you think maybe they heard me say that and they were like, “Well, it’s definitely time to announce.”

Preet Bharara:

“Screw Psaki.”

Jen Psaki:

I think it’s hard to know when the perfect time is to announce. There really isn’t one. What I was speaking to is the fact that last summer, there was a lot of he shouldn’t run, nobody wants him to run. All these other people should run. After the midterms, it shifted a little bit and it became clear that there really wasn’t going to be, at least at this point. Who knows? It is April 25th. So lots of things could happen, a real primary opponent. No offense to Kennedy. But I think so I thought it was smart for them to wait because the benefit of being an incumbent running for reelection as a president is being president, right?

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Jen Psaki:

Is you have the plane, you have the music, but you also can showcase to the public, “Look, you can see me in this job. I have more work I want to get done.” As he said today in his video, “I want to finish the job.”

President Biden:

When I ran for president four years ago, I said, “We’re in a battle for the soul of America,” and we still are. The question we’re facing is whether in the years ahead, we have more freedom or less freedom, more rights or fewer.

Jen Psaki:

But I am, especially in comparison with potentially Trump and certainly some of the other ones, I’m doing, “I care about you. I’m competent. I’m trying to do work on behalf of the American people. Oh, and by the way, I’m going to meeting with foreign leaders. So look, I’m being president.” So to them, my view has been that has been beneficial to them to do that as long as possible. At a certain point, and maybe April 25th is the magical day or within the weeks or months of the magical time, you do have to launch a campaign so you can raise money, which it’s very expensive to run for president even for reelection, and hire a campaign team and get to the business of campaigning. But for a while, I think it was smart for them to wait.

Preet Bharara:

But if you had your druthers and you were in charge, am I correct that you would’ve advised waiting a little longer?

Jen Psaki:

I don’t know, maybe a couple more weeks. But they would’ve wanted to get out, I would say, before the summer because the summer’s a lull a little bit, by August, in politics.

Preet Bharara:

I’m confused. So there are going to be a number of Republicans running.

Jen Psaki:

Yup.

Preet Bharara:

Some of whom are expected and have not yet announced. What’s the logic? And maybe different people have different logic that they subscribe to, but if it’s the right moment for Biden as the incumbent president, what’s going on with DeSantis? Is he making a mistake by not entering it?

Jen Psaki:

What’s going on with DeSantis is the zillion dollar question.

Preet Bharara:

Well, there’s… I have a number of questions. I have a whole section.

Jen Psaki:

There’s a lot to unpack there.

Preet Bharara:

I have a whole section on DeSantis. But this is a question not specific to DeSantis, but if you’re a Republican, why are you sitting on the sidelines at this fairly late date?

Jen Psaki:

Probably because you don’t want to be a target of Trump quite yet, although that hasn’t exactly stopped him as it relates to DeSantis.

Preet Bharara:

And Biden obviously doesn’t have that consideration.

Jen Psaki:

Correct. There are people who have put their toes in the water, like Tim Scott, done an exploratory committee. That’s one way to feel it out and still raise interest and see what the response is. But I think a lot of them seem to be feeling out whether they want to do this or not. And for them, it’s like, “Could I actually beat Trump in a primary? And if not, should I wait four years?”

Preet Bharara:

Since you mentioned DeSantis, actually I mentioned DeSantis, let’s pause on him for a moment. Do you think he’s peaked? I think you’ve suggested as much.

Jen Psaki:

Maybe. Now, what’s also true is that people, and I don’t know that DeSantis will or won’t, people can get better in the course of running for president. They’re nothing similar, but even Barack Obama, who I worked for in both of his campaigns, was not the best version of himself as a candidate in the first couple of months. That’s entirely possible. I think the challenge for DeSantis is that people projected on him what they wanted him to be. He was like this magical candidate made in a lab for a lot of Republicans who liked the conservative, I don’t even know if they’d be considered conservative, but the positions of Trump but wanted less crazy. And DeSantis seemed positions of Trump less crazy. And that’s why he peaked, or so far, he peaked in November after he had a resounding victory in November in his own election, and seemed like one of the only real big winners in the Republican Party at a time where Trump did not seem like a winner.

So the fact that he’s gone down in the polls, he was beating Trump in many of the polls right after the November elections, and now Trump is beating him, it’s not the right direction. But national polls are a very weird gauge and very… They move a lot. Endorsements, I know there’s been a lot made of Trump getting all these endorsements. Endorsements, in my view, don’t really matter. They’re sometimes a sign of momentum, but they certainly don’t determine the outcome of a primary. But I think the question for DeSantis is what is your strategy and how exactly are you going to take out Trump? Because he’s not clearly going to do just by-

Preet Bharara:

I don’t know that he has a strategy. And-

Jen Psaki:

Yes, that’s the question. Yeah, exactly.

Preet Bharara:

Further to your point a minute ago, I saw recently someone pointing out to folks and I trust this to be true. I haven’t double checked it, that back in the 2008 race, Barack Obama did not lead Hillary Clinton in any poll nationally, not in any poll until he won Iowa.

Jen Psaki:

Correct. Yep, I lived it.

Preet Bharara:

So winning changes the calculus, and it’s all about that first state-

Jen Psaki:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

… for the Republican primary, right?

Jen Psaki:

Still is and still could be. And that is the thing that is actually an open question here, because there’s no question there. Is fatigue with Trump even though he still has a great deal of support in the Republican base? Iowa, it’s an open question. It’s obviously not a factor for Democrats even without a primary anymore as it used to be, but it is a place where Tim Scott, Nikki Haley, I have no idea. I don’t know. If they do well, if they court voters, if they’re surprising, it could get them momentum, at least get them a bump and they could be the more obvious alternative.

Preet Bharara:

This issue of peaking you mentioned, it makes me think back to lots of different examples of politicians seeming to have peaked. It could have been said about Joe Biden not that long ago that he peaked in 1988.

Jen Psaki:

Well, although-

Preet Bharara:

And he’s the President of the United States, so people have multiple lives in politics.

Jen Psaki:

That’s true. And if you look back at 2020, I didn’t work on any of the campaigns in 2020. And I was in Iowa doing some commentating of sorts for CNN and some for ABC over the Iowa caucus, and I remember kind of chatting with a bunch of the campaigns. You could feel this movement for Pete Buttigieg at the time, which did end up playing out in terms of the outcome of the Iowa caucus. Joe Biden finished fifth in Iowa, if I’m remembering correctly. There was nobody in his Des Moines headquarters office. At that point, everybody was saying, “Oh, it’s over. It’s done. He’s going to drop out.” And then of course, that’s not how the primary turned out.

So the thing about presidential primaries, and it’s obviously a little bit different on the Republican side because there’s more primaries than caucuses. Caucuses are a little different. But is that a lot of things can happen. And if people are looking for an alternative or for Biden, it was this electability argument that was very effective for him. Same, it was effective for John Kerry back in 2004. Can DeSantis make an electability argument? He’s not currently. Is he more elect electable than Trump? I’m not sure with was some of the policies he’s recently signed in, but he may be because he seems less crazy and unstable to people. So maybe. Hard to know. Could there be somebody else who makes that argument? Maybe.

Preet Bharara:

I think you alluded to a poll at the beginning of our conversation, and the poll that I’m thinking of reported that 70% of Democrats, I think it was 70% of Democrats, don’t want Joe Biden to run again. And I think it was either that poll or another poll that said only 5% of Americans would like to see a rematch Trump-Biden. With respect to the first finding, is that a judgment on the part of Democrats that they don’t like Biden or they’re disappointed in Biden, or is it just concern about his age and ability to complete a second term, or both?

Jen Psaki:

It’s hard to… A lot of these different polls that test this data don’t always ask all of those follow-up questions, and I’m sure they will moving forward. In the NBC poll that just came out on Sunday, the reason why people who responded and said they didn’t want Biden to run, the primary reason was because of his age. Now, he’s 80. He is the oldest president in history. He would certainly still be the oldest president in history if he’s reelected. Trump is also 76. So it’s not like if Trump is the nominee, I’m not sure how they make an argument on the other side that age is the factor. It’s like my husband said this morning which is funny, it’s like Biden was a senior in college and Trump was like a freshman or something. It’s not a massive age difference or something.

But if it’s somebody else, maybe that becomes a part of their argument. And certainly if you watched Governor Sarah Huckabee Sanders’ response, which was a little strange, dark, and the twilight zoning to Biden’s State of the Union, that she was leading with age as like with her chin. So that could become a part of their argument if it’s somebody who’s younger. But people, they’re tired. They want new people. That’s not uncommon, right?

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. But which new person?

Jen Psaki:

Change with I don’t know. That’s always the question, and nobody knows.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, it’s almost crazy. Although I have misgivings too, and I’m worried about… I’m a big… I voted for Joe Biden. I’m a fan of his. I think he’s been a very solid and steady president. I think he’s been good for the country, and he was handed a lot of bad stuff and he’s made a lot of things better. But even I worry a little bit about his age in completing the next term. But then when I think to the next question, who’s in a better position? Who’s more likely to put together a coalition of people, not only within the Democratic Party, but also independents and some Republicans? I don’t really see anybody. And I’m a fan of some of the other people on the Democratic bench. You mentioned one of them, Pete Buttigieg. But in what universe is there some other Democrat who would satisfy the 70% who say they don’t want Biden to run again? There’s no such person, is there?

Jen Psaki:

No. Oh, if there was, they’d probably be running. And it is exciting that there are a lot of interesting and compelling Democrats who are late 40s, 50, even 30s. That’s good for the future of the party. But-

Preet Bharara:

Who’s the best one?

Jen Psaki:

Who’s the best one? I don’t… I’m not going to pick among. I will say one of the cool things about this job and this, maybe you may feel this too because I know you talked to all sorts of interesting people, but is that I’ve spent time with some different people that I didn’t really know as well before, like Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Governor Newsom. I’m probably going to spend some time with Governor Wes Moore. And it’s not that they’re not obviously names on the national scene, but they are interesting and compelling people who could have a long future in politics. Who knows what that means? And that’s ultimately good for the party.

But yeah, to your point, Preet, it’s like Biden always says, and he quotes his dad but I feel like a zillion people say this, which is like, “Don’t compare me to the Almighty. Compare me to the alternative,” which is essentially what a campaign is, right?

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Jen Psaki:

It’s not a person against the ideal. It’s a person against the other option.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, of course.

Jen Psaki:

And if they can make that case, that’s how he wins.

Preet Bharara:

I was reminded of something else historically. Somebody posted on social media today or yesterday or maybe many multiple people are posting this. There was a poll back in either 1983 or 1984 suggesting that a majority of Americans didn’t want Reagan to run again.

Jen Psaki:

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Preet Bharara:

Dude won 49 states…

Jen Psaki:

I know.

Preet Bharara:

… in the ’84. I don’t think Biden’s going to do quite that well. I don’t think any race is going to unfold that way in America for a long time. But that’s just evidence that some of this early talk is a bit silly.

Jen Psaki:

Yes, it is. It is. It’s funny, the ’84 race was one of my first political memories because my mother voted for Mondale. And my dad, I remember my dad saying to her, “You’re the only person who voted for Mondale in the country.” And even at however old I was, like five or six, I was like, “Mom, that’s weird.” So yes.

Preet Bharara:

My parents voted for Reagan in 1984.

Jen Psaki:

There you go.

Preet Bharara:

I don’t know that they voted for Republicans since, but boy, they voted for Reagan in ’84.

Jen Psaki:

Yeah, so there you go. You’re right. It’s the comparison between a person and the ideal or the magical unicorn candidate that doesn’t exist that you want to see is not the reality of how campaigns in elections are fought or won.

Preet Bharara:

I have a question that will be a little bit of a transition from this talk about the 2024 race and your prior job as White House press secretary. So you’re obviously gone, but if you were there now and your successor is dealing with this issue, so now your boss is not only the President of the United States, Commander-in-Chief, he’s also an announced candidate for the presidency. How would you be thinking about or how are they thinking about what they say from the podium…

Jen Psaki:

Oof.

Preet Bharara:

… when they’re simultaneously supposed to be governing, but also obviously thinking very deeply and heavily about the upcoming political race?

Jen Psaki:

I was working on the campaign of Obama when he was running for reelection so I wasn’t inside the White House. But the White House during a reelection is thinking about a lot of things, but also primarily about the politics and the campaign. And there’s a lot you can do in a White House that does not violate any Hatch Act laws or political rules, including where you go, what you tout, how you sell, and talk about in the moment.

Preet Bharara:

If you happen to be going and touting infrastructure in early primary states, that’s okay.

Jen Psaki:

Right. Wink, wink. Now, what’s tricky, if I were in my old job and for Karine who’s my successor, is the Hatch Act police are out and watching always for what you say and do from the podium.

Preet Bharara:

Is that still a thing given how Kellyann Conway on down, every single person in Trump’s orbit in his one term violated the Hatch Act, and there was no consequence for anyone.

Jen Psaki:

They literally had a campaign rally on the South Lawn. But at some point, Preet, I said something from the podium when I was there and I got a very sternly worded letter from the Hatch Act police out there from CREW about my violation of the Hatch Act. So I think Karine keeps that in mind. Because as much as I joke, you don’t really want to be doing that from the podium and that’s certainly not what the president wants you to do. But what you can do is you can find ways to explain, tout his accomplishments. It’s not that the race is going to be won or lost on that, but it is how you’re judged. And the IRA, which is the worst named bill ever, although I understand why they did it that way, I think of Irish Republican Army. When I think of that, it’s like…

Preet Bharara:

I think of warm cozy retirement plan.

Jen Psaki:

Whatever, okay. So it all brings up a different thing. It does not bring up addressing the climate crisis to either of us, but there’s a lot in there. What we learned from the Affordable Care Act, which you will probably remember, was very unpopular during the first couple of years. By the end of Obama’s term, when this is when I was working for him, it was quite popular in part because we broke out the components of it and how that impacted people’s lives. So what you can do from the podium and from the White House that does not violate any Hatch Act laws is pull out those pieces and explain to the public what exactly is in the IRA or the Infrastructure bill, or these actually big sweeping accomplishments that they have done under the Biden presidency that people would care about if they knew what was in there. And it has to be more than this named bill or legislation. Has to be the actual impacts.

Preet Bharara:

Your time as White House Press Secretary was tumultuous time. That’s probably true if everyone has ever served in that job. First question is, and I’ve asked this question of the other person that I’ll be referring to in a moment, what’s the hardest job in the White House? I don’t think it’s president. I think it’s either press secretary or chief of staff. Do you agree?

Jen Psaki:

Oh God, the chief of staff. I don’t know. I think being president’s pretty hard.

Preet Bharara:

It’s really hard.

Jen Psaki:

Everything…

Preet Bharara:

But also cool. You’re the president.

Jen Psaki:

… sits on your lap. I guess. I don’t know.

Preet Bharara:

That mitigates the difficulty a little bit.

Jen Psaki:

Yeah. I feel like I know too much about what it takes to run for office.

Preet Bharara:

Klain didn’t have a plane.

Jen Psaki:

No, Klain did not have a plane. I will say having worked for a number of chiefs of staff in my time, that job is so hard. It is everything is on your plate, including getting the president to make decisions about things he may or may not want to make decisions about, which is true for all of them. And every complaint, from a staffer, from a member of Congress, from an interest group, from anyone who has any interest in what’s happening in the White House goes to you. Ron did not sleep in that job. I know because he would send fully written speeches at three in the morning. You can never get to have-

Preet Bharara:

I don’t think it requires it. There are some humans.

Jen Psaki:

Maybe, but every-

Preet Bharara:

Was Ron created by OpenAI?

Jen Psaki:

Maybe.

Preet Bharara:

Could have been.

Jen Psaki:

I will say I would go into morning meetings with him and think, “Oh man, I am killing it today.” I woke up at 4:00 in the morning. I read all the newspapers. I know what I want to say. I know what my questions are. And I’d get there and it was like I wanted to tell Ron something he didn’t know. And never, I don’t know if I ever stumped him. So that job is hard and horrible, and any person who’s ever had it, who I know, Denis McDonough, Rahm Emanuel, it makes them… Almost breaks them as a human. It’s so hard.

Preet Bharara:

Presumably you consulted with various of your predecessors on the Democratic side. Did you talk to people like Dana Perino and others on the Republican side to get their advice and counsel on how to do that job?

Jen Psaki:

Yes, I did. And over the years, I’ve talked to Dana Perino. And I also talked to Dana Perino before I started my current job. I’ve also read all of her books too, and some of them talk about her time there. I did talk to all of the Democratic press secretaries, I’m fairly certain. I didn’t talk to the Trump era press secretaries. Although when I was leaving, have you ever heard? There’s this tradition in the press secretary’s office of the flak jacket-

Preet Bharara:

No.

Jen Psaki:

… which this flak jacket had been there. It’s actually a pretty cool tradition. It had been there for a long time, and every press secretary, and it was an old men’s blazer, every press secretary-

Preet Bharara:

Was it green? Is it like the masters?

Jen Psaki:

Okay. So I’ve never seen. I didn’t see it because it wasn’t there when I started my job. But it had been there for decades and every press secretary left a note for their successor in it. Now, there’s a dispute as to when it disappeared. I don’t know. It was there when I left the Obama administration and it was not there when I started.

Preet Bharara:

If there were classified documents in the blazer, they probably went to Mar-a-Lago.

Jen Psaki:

Wait. Maybe at Mar-a-Lago, if anyone finds a men’s blazer with notes in the pocket. But I did reach out to and engaged with almost all of my predecessors around that because as I was leaving, I was like, “I want to replace the flak jacket and reach out to people to put notes in,” because it is this nice tradition.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. So did you?

Jen Psaki:

Now, I did replace it with a women’s bright yellow blazer, but I did make one of the tall men on my team try it on to make sure in case it was a man who was a press secretary in the future, would fit him too. But I did reach out to all of them, and it was interesting. Almost all of them replied. And I didn’t get all the notes by the time I left, but hopefully, I think they’ve acquired some of them since then to put them in the pockets.

Preet Bharara:

Was there a variation as a general matter in the advice you got from the Republican press secretaries as compared to the Democratic press secretaries?

Jen Psaki:

Surprisingly, not as much as you would think. Because one of the things that a number of people, and now this is a couple of years ago, so I don’t… And I sometimes I wish I had written this all down because they all had interesting things to say. But one of the things that was consistent that people told me was it’s not about winning a fight in the room. I don’t think you do the job as press secretary unless you’ve got a little feisty in you. Otherwise, I don’t know how you would do that job. But it’s very easy to get into a back and forth with a person in the room. And to a person, most people said to me, it’s about speaking to the people who are watching at home.

Now, for some people, that was people literally watching live television or clips of the television. There’s also now obviously a range of ways people consume information. But that was one of the pieces of advice a lot of people gave me which was so important to remember. The other piece of advice people gave me was remember who you’re speaking for and you have to send a clear message early on that you have a direct… You have his ear because that’s what your value is. You don’t care what I think. They cared what I was saying on behalf of President Biden. And so I made it a point early on to ask him some questions where I could say, and this became natural as I was in the job for a while, but where I could say, “oh, I spoke with the president about this,” or, “I asked him about it this morning,” to show that.

Preet Bharara:

I want to ask you how you prepared every day. It’s fascinating to me.

Jen Psaki:

Preparation is all the things. Is this true? I feel like being a lawyer, is this true? Once you get to the courtroom, are you like, “Oh, we’re ready.”

Preet Bharara:

Well, you have butterflies. It depends on what the situation is and certain kinds of things. You can proceed according to your script and other kinds of things. You’d need to be generally prepared. And this is probably more-

Jen Psaki:

Agile, yeah.

Preet Bharara:

… your experience and go with the flow. As they say in a box, something like your plans go out the window when you get punched in the face that first time. But it’s endlessly fascinating to me how people do their jobs and how they prepare when they have public-facing jobs. So remind people in normal times how often you went to the podium in a week.

Jen Psaki:

Five times a week.

Preet Bharara:

All right, so every… Now, did you have to do that? Was that the tradition? Could you have done less?

Jen Psaki:

Yeah, there was a tradition to it. And when I was President Obama’s communications director for the last year and a half of his presidency. And if the Clinton team had come in, and this is not a partisan thing. It’s mainly because they would’ve continued the traditions of respecting media and institutions, which is not exactly what Trump did, to say, put it mildly. But we would’ve probably, I would’ve said to them, “I don’t think you need to do the briefing every day, or try to think of different ways to do it.” Maybe some ways you do it, tight days, you do it with just regional press. Some days you do it with press that doesn’t have a seat in the briefing room. Maybe some days you do it online.

Because it really is a briefing for the 50 people who have the seats in the briefing room, and that’s not controlled by anyone but the White House Correspondent Association. And they have a rhyme or reason to how they do it. But you don’t reach a lot of regional reporters. You don’t reach a lot of range of digital outlets because they don’t have seats in there.

Preet Bharara:

Was it the thought there, it’s like second semester of senior year in high school? Your grades don’t matter as much. You don’t have to come out five times a week.

Jen Psaki:

Well, no. I think it was more about being creative with your time and how you’re connecting with the public. Doing the briefing, when I started, one of the things that I talked with then President-elect Biden about when I talked with him about this job, the press secretary job, was a returning stability to the role and taking the temperature down. And the role that the press secretary has in reminding people that US government and the White House, even when you disagree and you have fisticuffs and back and forth with reporters, that’s actually democracy working. So we actually made a decision to not only return it to five days a week, but also to do a briefing the very first day he was sworn in, which is not something that I’m aware of has ever happened before, just to send the message that this was something we were going to do. So are you required to? No, but it does send an important message.

Preet Bharara:

Other than read all the papers and follow the news on any random Wednesday or Thursday, what else did you do? What kind of meetings prepared you for your stint at the podium every day that you weren’t in that job?

Jen Psaki:

I would start my day in the fives, as I like to say. And usually I would try to send a note to the team when I was organized that wasn’t overly formal, just like, “Here are the five or six things on my mind that we need to get answers to or need to really think about how we’re going to address them.” And for me, that was an organizational mechanism to focus it. Because if you start the day and you’re focused on 50 things, you’re going to do 50 things mediocre. Most days when you’re doing the briefing, you need to get four or five things right.

Preet Bharara:

When you thought about those four or five things in the morning, were they picked because those are the things you thought the press folks in the room were going to ask you about?

Jen Psaki:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

And/or were there things that the administration, the president himself, wanted to get out there affirmatively? And were those two things or two categories of things sometimes different?

Jen Psaki:

Yes, they were often different. And often that the way I started the day was more about the former, as in things the press were going to ask about. Because in many ways, the press secretary, I don’t know that this is the right analogy, but it’s like the fireman or the firewomen. You’re like-

Preet Bharara:

Firefighter. Who’s a firefighter here?

Jen Psaki:

You are firefighter in that you are dealing with incoming. You are, yes, on your best days shaping the external message projected from the White House. But there’s a reality of what that job is. And often, it is dealing with the hardest, most challenging crankiest questions, less like, “Why is your climate plan so awesome?” That’s not a question you get. Now, you try to inject into it why the climate plan is awesome. But that’s the way I thought about it was more about these are the five tricky wickets we have to think about. And just seeing in coverage and Twitter and all sorts of things where people are headed, this is where we need to focus our time. And then I would take that list with me, which could evolve through the morning, and I would go to the morning meeting with Ron Klain where he’d already been up for nine hours and other senior advisors and raise things where I needed to raise them.

Then we would have a meeting with the president, news of the day, NOTD as we called it, where I would raise things with him as well. Sometimes during certain periods of time, there was a period of time of course early on where it was all COVID, so-

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, of course.

Jen Psaki:

… I just would call Jeff Zients or one of the people from his tournament team and go through stuff. There was a period of time during my later months where it was all Russia, Ukraine, and so I used to go to a daily meeting that Jake Sullivan led as well. But the key was keeping it focused enough that you could actually provide some form of new information if humanly possible on the things that were driving the day.

Preet Bharara:

And so you went to the podium with a document, I presume?

Jen Psaki:

Yeah, a binder.

Preet Bharara:

And would you read from a document? And if so, was there someone that you had to clear that set of talking points with? Was it Ron or read the last set of eyes and you were trusted, after some consultation and going to meetings of course, you were trusted to put the language in the way you wanted to put it?

Jen Psaki:

I would run… You would get a ton of stuff from different departments before the briefing. And the team, the press team, which isn’t that big at the White House, it’s only 10 people, but they were broken down by what we called beats, just like reporters do. One guy, Kevin Munoz, who he knew so much about COVID by the end, we called him Dr. Munos, would do COVID. Vedant Patel, who’s now at the State Department, did immigration and climate, I think. I told him, I gave him all of the easy jobs, which is obviously a joke. So it’s broken down by issues and you would get a lot of paper from them. But there were certainly times and days and weeks where it was like I just had to kind of cull together what I was going to say.

And yes, I would run them by. If it was Russia, Ukraine, “Jake, Jon Finer, how does this sound?” If it was something that was about, and there were many days like this, a negotiation on the Hill, Ron, Steve Ricchetti, Louisa, others. There’s a certain, and again, this must be, there must be an element of this in the courtroom, I don’t know. Maybe I should go to law school. It seems like it a pretty cool-

Preet Bharara:

You’d be pretty good. I think you be pretty good.

Jen Psaki:

… profession, but there’s a certain agility or trust that’s required when you’re out there because you can’t… There, you read some things from the paper. It’s like if there’s statistics about the GDP, I’m not going to know those by memory necessarily. But a lot of it is that back and forth banter, and you need to be able to know what your parameters are. And so it’s really about what your parameters are.

Preet Bharara:

And obviously as the press secretary, you’re not the principal, you’re not the elected official. But would you also, like politicians do, and I worked for a senator for four and a half years, when you thought about what you were going to say, were you conscious of sometimes trying to say things that would be sound bites and that would be picked up in the media, or did you not do that?

Jen Psaki:

Sure. I think you have to think about that, not in a way that is gross. And I don’t mean gross. I mean in a way that’s so obvious. And so that last resort-

Preet Bharara:

But you want to have good lines because you wanted it to get out beyond the room.

Jen Psaki:

You want to, yes. You want it to get out beyond the room, and you want to be able to explain it in a way that is digestible to people. And sometimes that requires analogies. It requires comparisons. It requires a hit on somebody who’s your foil. It’s sometimes good to have a foil. So those were all-

Preet Bharara:

You showed that many, many times.

Jen Psaki:

Yeah. It’s fun to have a foil sometimes, a lot of times. So the people who are the best writers of communications, political messaging are ones who can take super complicated things and make them digestible in a way that doesn’t sound like a poll-tested talking point, but sounds like digestible English. And I fortunately worked with a couple of people, a bunch of people who we could banter, think, bat things around together and try to figure that out from time to time.

Preet Bharara:

I’ll be right back with Jen Psaki after this. Did you ever, particularly on days when you thought you were going to get a lot of incoming, do a moot? Did people pretend to be particular reporters like the Fox guy?

Jen Psaki:

Oh, before I started, I did about 10 of them before my first briefing. You do mini moots where you’d say, “Okay, you guys pretend to be the reporters. I just want to…” Because the press team can anticipate where conversations are going to go in a way that you may not think of. So we would sometimes do mini moots to go through what the banter or what the direction it might go and was.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. And who played the Fox guy?

Jen Psaki:

Oh, God. Andrew Bates, who is, you probably know who is one of the deputy press secretaries in the White House and is the guy who, if there’s an investigative story or something that is unpleasant, he’s probably the one dealing with it. I think he probably played the Fox guy the most.

Preet Bharara:

I did a number of press events when I was the US attorney, many, many dozens of press conferences. But on every occasion that I was going out, I think without exception because I was choosing to speak and it wasn’t every day, obviously, I was announcing some substantial law enforcement action that we would think would be received very well. We’re holding someone accountable. We’ve caught people engaged in bribery. We’ve foiled a terrorist plot. Whatever the case may be, it was all good stuff, generally.

Jen Psaki:

Yeah, those are all good things.

Preet Bharara:

Right. So I didn’t have to get myself psyched up. There was adrenaline already coursing through everyone’s veins. You go out there and you’re grateful that the team did a great job and you’re increasing public safety. Now, on some of the days that you were going to go out there, you knew there was going to be a torrent of criticism. In the moments before you went out there, did you have a ritual or a routine? Did you have to get yourself amped up or were you already amped up and have to calm down? Did you have more caffeine, less? I’m just very curious about how you dealt with your temperament and your attitude as you walked out.

Jen Psaki:

So John Kirby, who you probably know, and I used to talk about how, regardless of what was happening, even on tough days, the briefing was always the best part of the day because by that point, you had what you had to say. And it was a little bit of a test of sorts. But yeah, there were days where either there wasn’t new information we could share because the negotiations over a bill or an issue were sensitive. I couldn’t share information because it was a national security issue and stuff was classified or so sensitive it would put something at risk, or just we were under fire over something. Justifiably many times, sometimes not. And you knew that you’d have to go out there and answer sometimes questions 10, 15 times.

And so most days, I could get myself psyched up for it. There’s a funny video, I think it was from my first briefing where Karine and I are dancing or shimmying or something right before. We were just shaking it all off. So sometimes that. But some days you’re human. So some days I certainly let the 12th question on how crappy we were get to me. But you learn that you have to maintain calm and also have to just repeat the context the 12th, 15 times you answer the question. Otherwise-

Preet Bharara:

Would you breathe? Do you have a breathing exercise? Because you are known for many things. And part of the reason why I think people appreciated your approach to that podium was you always seem calm and in control of your faculties and your emotions, even when you were being attacked or your principal was being attacked. Was there some magic or trick to that?

Jen Psaki:

I will say that when things got crazy in that room, and I did this even before I was the press secretary because I was the spokesperson at the State Department for two and a half years too, 10 years ago, so I had to practice it there. If things got crazy in there, I sometimes would pretend I was an orderly in an insane asylum. So it’s like if you talk slower and more calmly, like people will put away their knives and stop degrading.

Preet Bharara:

But how do you do that without sounding condescending? Although maybe that you sometimes do want to sound condescending.

Jen Psaki:

Although my intention was never to sound condescending, although the right wing to say that, but I think some of it is really trying… And I’m trying to try to do this in this job too, is to listen to what people are actually saying in their question. And sometimes, you’re listening for something that you can hook into to dismantle it. That doesn’t always work. If it’s a crappy day and you’re under fire for good reason, then you’re under fire for good reason. There were plenty of days like that. But sometimes my favorite thing people used to do, which is a very Trumpian thing to do, is to say, “Some people are saying. Some people are saying.” And it’s like-

Preet Bharara:

Well sourced.

Jen Psaki:

… who’s the “some people”? Well, and it’s also even some people, if it’s a person who’s walking by the White House, I really, God bless them, I don’t care. It doesn’t matter what they have to say. It matters, but it’s not turning the course of policymaking. Or some people-

Preet Bharara:

But sometimes it’s a lie.

Jen Psaki:

… like senators. I know. It’s like there are some-

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. Well, Sarah Huckabee Sanders. And maybe this is because it’s parochial to me, and the Justice Department just got up there and lied and said, some FBI Agents were complaining about Jim Comey’s tenure. And Jim Comey is a complicated figure at this moment, but she just got up there and lied. And by the way, we know that because it was admitted in connection with the Mueller report a year and a half, two years later.

Jen Psaki:

Yes, so it is. And sometimes, unfortunately, and I don’t think this is malintent, but for most people, it gets repeated. She says it and then a reporter says, “Well, some people are saying that the FBI…” And it’s like, well, who’s some people? She was saying it? Did she have proof of it? So there was a little bit of that, but I don’t know. I think my tactics were just to try to remember if I got exercised, I was losing my own power and my own control of the situation. And so that’s what I kept in mind.

Preet Bharara:

Did you ever get a question, and then you’re gone from there now so you can admit this because it’s just you and me…

Jen Psaki:

It’s just us.

Preet Bharara:

It’s just us.

Jen Psaki:

And your listeners.

Preet Bharara:

Did you ever get a question you’re like, “Holy crap,” Out of the blue, you hadn’t thought about it? Or were you always pretty much prepared for the questions you got and you answered to the best of your ability? Did you ever get thrown completely off guard?

Jen Psaki:

Oh, of course.

Preet Bharara:

Well, why should that be? Why wouldn’t your team predict every question?

Jen Psaki:

It’s impossible. And at the State Department, they have this actually what I think is a really great tradition, and it doesn’t really flow as well at the White House it turns out. Where at the State Department, if you don’t have the information the reporter’s asking for, you say, “I’m going to take the question.” And that means that you basically are committing to sending a written answer to the question ideally later that day.

The truth is it shouldn’t be that the briefing room is a stump machine. It should be that it is a forum for holding administrations accountable through the Press Secretary. But also there are times where you just you may not have information on a particular… Because also there were people in that room who had, well, certainly agendas for some people, but also some people who just were focused on issues that were not front and center in the daily news. Good for them. But it may not be an issue that you have had a chance to discuss with a person who was down the echelons at OMB yet, even if it’s an important question. So yes, there were plenty days. I’d swear every day I did the briefing, I would walk off and say, “I wish I would’ve said this better. I wish I could have conveyed this in a more clear way.” I don’t know if I had a briefing where I was like, “That was great.”

Preet Bharara:

Did you watch yourself and look at the tape and try to learn from what you saw?

Jen Psaki:

I did watch interviews. I did. And sometimes if things were on Twitter and it was problematic or what have you, I would watch it. You have to. That’s why I always tell people, “I don’t know what advice you give to people who are doing TV for the first time or starting it.” It’s like people can tell you all the tactics and things, and most of them are wrong. The people who tell you to sit on your hands, you look like crazy when you do that. So don’t do that.

Preet Bharara:

Wait, that’s… Nobody ever told me that, and I don’t sit on my hands.

Jen Psaki:

It’s like people say don’t move your hands. And I’m like, “Well, you look like you’re a robot if you don’t move your hands.” So I do tell people you have to watch yourself because you will find, “Why am I saying that? Why am I using my voice like that? Why am I talking loud? Why am I talking so fast?”

Preet Bharara:

I had two things that I noticed. I didn’t do television until I was 41 years old. One was in conversation when someone’s asking you a question, it’s a thoughtful question you want to think about it, at least this is my habit and I know other people do this, you break eye contact and you look off to the left or the right. You look like a crazy person.

Jen Psaki:

Or you look like you’re being invasive-

Preet Bharara:

On television

Jen Psaki:

… unintentionally, yes.

Preet Bharara:

And the other thing was I had to tell, people would point out that if I got asked a question that was of above average difficulty, and there are one or more people on this who are listening in on the team who noticed that, that I would blink more. I wouldn’t lose my cool. I wouldn’t sweat. I wouldn’t perspire. I wouldn’t tremble. But boy, Preet started blinking and I had to work on that. Did you have things like that?

Jen Psaki:

Oh, yeah. My husband who is obviously a big supporter of mine, but is also my most honest, and it’s not like he was consuming the briefings most days, although my father-in-law watched and listened to every briefing, bless him. But my husband, I remember one interview I did with Chris Wallace who asked very fair, understandable questions. But it was right around, I think it was around Saudi Arabia and the relationship with Saudi Arabia, which is a tricky wicket, let’s just say, and complicated. And he was asking me a series of questions, all fair. And I was talking so fast that I ended the interview and my husband was on a text chain with my sister and brother-in-law and didn’t realize I was on there. And he was like, “That wasn’t her best.” Just critiquing my fast talking. I fast talk. That is my natural place, and I do that anyway. But I think sometimes when I think when I’m nervous about answering a question, I fast talk.

Preet Bharara:

What about on days when very serious things were happening? And I’ll give the example that I think I’m guessing was one of the more difficult time periods certainly was for the administration, and that’s the time period during which the US withdrew from Afghanistan.

Jen Psaki:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

What was that like for you? What were those days like? How did you deal with the criticism? What was it like behind the scenes, et cetera?

Jen Psaki:

That was the most difficult time of my time in the Biden White House for certain. The worst day of my time by far was the day that we lost members of the military in Afghanistan during the attack at Abbey Gate. It was difficult for a range of reasons. Obviously when you have the footage where people are so desperate, they’re hanging off of a plane, that is heartbreaking and really difficult to answer what’s happening here.

The day that we lost members of the military, I remember that day so distinctly because there were daily morning meetings in the situation room which I attended. I may or may not have invited myself too, which sometimes time to time you have to do to know what’s happening. And I remember walking into the meeting and John Finer, who’s the deputy National Security Advisor, brilliant, brilliant guy, they had said to me and the team, “We need to make sure reporters understand that there is a real threat of a terror. There’s a real threat here.” And I walked in and I said, “Tim, I think we’re making… I think people are starting to understand.” And he said, “There’s been an attack.” And it’s like I remember that moment, and then was the military was giving updates and stuff. And that day was just so… The president in that moment, obviously, it’s heartbreak. It’s the worst day and it’s the worst thing that can happen when you’re a president.

And finding a way for him to meet that moment and what he was going to say, and then I was going to do a briefing after him, you’re thinking, “How can I possibly?” I’m not making things better. I’m not even making the press better. This is a horrible day in our country, but all you can do is try to bring people inside the room of the emotional reaction and what was happening and what was happening behind the scenes.

And what’s also was so hard about that period of time was that you were watching people who were picking between terrible options. It was not an option to keep a presence in Afghanistan. It just was not. Trump had already negotiated a deal on timeline on withdrawal without any details. But the world was calling for Jake Sullivan to be fired, Tony Blinken to be fired, all of these people who maybe to some decisions were imperfect. I’m not suggesting otherwise, but were working their tails off to coordinate and to pick between difficult options. That’s what you don’t see unless you work in the White House. And seeing them just absolutely vilified publicly was this very difficult.

Preet Bharara:

On the other side of the coin, was there a particular time period or a particular day that was really excellent and wonderful and fun?

Jen Psaki:

Oh, of course.

Preet Bharara:

What was your best day?

Jen Psaki:

My best day which was an unexpected best day in some ways was the day that Ketanji Brown Jackson who’s Justice came to give a speech on the South Lawn and it was that… Were you there?

Preet Bharara:

I was not, but I was watching. I was watching.

Jen Psaki:

It was one… Sometimes in the White House, you get so in your foxhole, you’re like, “I can’t go to the event. I can’t do the thing. I can’t take a moment because I have so many things in my to-do list in my inbox.” And I felt like that that day and then I just decided last minute that I wanted to just be there because I would regret. I knew it was shortly before I was leaving the White House, even though that wasn’t known publicly, I knew that I didn’t have that much time left there. So I went out and I sat out on the South Lawn, and her speech was just remarkable and so moving and amazing. And being a part of that, I mean a small part of it. I wasn’t a part of the confirmation team or anything, but just feeling like this is why you come work in government, to make things happen, to make change happen, to make historic things happen. And I started crying and I’m like, “Oh my God, pull it yourself together.” That was something of like-

Preet Bharara:

But you cried on your best day. That’s good.

Jen Psaki:

Yeah, you cried on your best day. You cry of happiness and pride. But then I looked around and everybody was crying around me, but that day was probably my best day. And also the day the Olympians came, I was like, I’m an Olympics freak. I just like, it was so exciting, but I had a lot of great days.

Preet Bharara:

You’re just reminding me of a couple of my own experiences. Because you go and do this job, and I’ve had amazingly privileged experiences and I got to do these great jobs. You’ve got to do these great jobs in government. I remember the first time I walked into the Senate Judiciary hearing room, and I saw 19 senators who represented a couple of hundred million people and thought to myself, “I get to be here.” And then you forget that because you know have work and the senators yelling at you. You have people who are in your experience who are yelling, asking for materials, and wanting to follow up. And reporters are in your face and you can sometimes forget where you are and how special it is.

And I knew I was leaving the Senate and I had some time before I got confirmed to be the US attorney. I think I’ve told this story before. I went and I took Robert Carroll’s Master of the Senate, the hardcover version of it, and I went to the floor of the Senate and sat in the staff area and I read the first chapter, which is about the desks of the Senate, knowing I probably would never sit there again. How often did you forget or remember that you were in the White House and at that special podium?

Jen Psaki:

I tried to remind myself. And I don’t remember who said this, but probably a lot of people. If you ever are working in the White House and you walk out the North Gate, which is the one that’s in the front of the White House, and you don’t feel how special it is the place you get to be in, then you are… It’s time to go. But one of my favorite places to walk up, so there’s a set of steps that connects West Exec, which is the street that’s closed off from the public between the Executive Office Building and the West Wing. And I used to park in on West Exec when I was the White House press secretary, and you could walk in under an awning that’s on West Exec. But most days I tried to walk the slightly longer way where you’d walk up the steps that go up to right in front of the West Wing lobby because you walk up those steps and as you’re walking up, you see the residence, you see the White House, and it’s just a reminder of the place you’re in.

And I did that as often as I could because it was just that reminder. And I tried not to forget. And even on my last days, I did try to take a walk around the East Wing and the residence and places where you just don’t know where life will be, and you can’t take for granted whether or not you’ll ever be back in some of these places and rooms and buildings again, to your point.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. No, I think that’s exactly right. We’ve talked about the job a bunch. How would you describe what you understood your mission to be?

Jen Psaki:

I think the mission of the job in general is to be, in many ways, a go-between the press and the administration. And so you have a responsibility to the press always to, of course, be honest and provide them the level of detail you can. But you also have a responsibility to the administration. And you become, there’s a push and pull which is again, a healthy part of democracy. I do think that the job and the time I had it had a different, almost I don’t want to say more important, but uniquely important because of the time we were living in, still are living in, I guess, role, which was to play a small role in trying to rebuild some trust in the institution of government, and the fact that government values the role of the freedom of press and that part of our democracy. Now, that’s not something like one person can do, one job can do, one office can do, but that’s something we talked about. We called it Operation Rebuild Trust, which is a little hokey, but we reminded ourself that was a real central part of our jobs.

Preet Bharara:

So now, you have this TV show on MSNBC on Sundays, which is doing very well. Congratulations. It’s called Inside with Jen Psaki. So my question, how would you describe your mission on the TV show?

Jen Psaki:

My mission, what I come to this with is of course a lot of experience sitting in all these different rooms I’ve been talking about, the situation room, the Oval Office, lots of campaign buses. And what I hope I can do is peel the curtain back and really help people and the viewers understand what’s actually happening in all those rooms. And that is something I’m not the only person who can do, but I did spend a lot of time in all those places, and so I hope I can bring a unique perspective to.

What I also am trying to do is I came to this and said to my many bosses here, Caesar Conde, Rashida Jones, and others, one of the things I took away from working in government and for politicians for so many years is that people are often caricatured for good or for bad. You can only really be one thing or two things in the public eye. And I really wanted to showcase different sides, all the sides of some of the people who are playing prominent roles in government, running for office, working on certain issues. So that’s another thing that I’ve had fun trying to do so far, and we’re going to keep trying to do on the show.

Preet Bharara:

You have said about the TV show, “I’m not going on television to be a mouthpiece,” but you’re not pretending to be totally nonpartisan and down the middle.

Jen Psaki:

No.

Preet Bharara:

You’re a Democrat and non-progressive and you supported Democratic candidates before. So how do you mean that statement about being a mouthpiece?

Jen Psaki:

I mean that I am not here to speak on behalf of the Biden administration. If you’re interested in how they are, why they’re making decisions, how they’re making them, one, I’m not sitting in the room. I haven’t been in the room for 11 months. I have a lot of contacts there and I can talk to a lot of people there and convey, “Here’s what they’re saying about what they’re doing,” that’s part of it. But I also mean that I’m not going to just go out every day on television or when I’m on television and just say everything they’re doing is magical and amazing, because that wouldn’t be honest or authentic. I’m also not going to go out every day and say, “He’s terrible.” Actually, I’m neutral on these issues that I’ve been fighting for for many, many decades.

So I think what I’m trying to convey is that what I can bring to this is insight and perspective on how these things actually work, what’s happening on a campaign, what’s happening in a White House, how congresses, what they, how they think about stuff. But I’m not here to be the spokesperson for any candidate or campaign, and there is a difference.

Preet Bharara:

Congratulations on the new show.

Jen Psaki:

Thank you.

Preet Bharara:

I’ve been a big fan for a long time. Thanks for being on Stay Tuned.

Jen Psaki:

Me too, a mutual fan. Thank you.

Preet Bharara:

Thanks so much.

Jen Psaki:

Love being on with you.

Preet Bharara:

My conversation with Jen Psaki continues for members of the CAFE Insider community. We discuss how she thinks about impartiality in journalism. To try out the membership for just $1 for a month, head to cafe.com/insider. Again, that’s cafe.com/insider.

 

THE BUTTON

So folks, before we end the show this week, I wanted to highlight an article published in YES! Magazine. As you may know, this past Saturday, we celebrated Earth Day, a day dedicated to increasing public awareness of environmental issues. I often think about these issues. We talk about them on the show. And so when I read the story, I thought it was worth sharing with you all. It’s about a group of comedians known as the Climate Comedy Cohort. Now, you’re probably thinking, “What does comedy have to do with climate? Climate change is no laughing matter.” And that’s a fair point.

But this group is here to show you different. They describe themselves as “an unprecedented network of comedians who are coming together to learn, collaborate, and create hilarious new comedy informed by the hottest climate science”. The program includes a nine-month fellowship and comedy contest and was created by American University Center for Media and Social Impact and Generation 180, a clean energy nonprofit organization. YES! Magazine points out in the article that by talking about climate, even irreverently, they may be helping to combat climate doom and boost civic engagement.

One comedian from the cohort, Katie Hannigan, joked…

Katie Hannigan:

I am doing my part for climate change. I have never even used my gas stove since I started that fire.

Preet Bharara:

Kat Avasco, a comedian on another show called LOL Climate Change says, “We aren’t big on sharing data and statistics. What we are looking for is how does this show up in human experience?” Of course, humor can be a powerful tool when it comes to engaging with and relating to others. I’ve talked about this before. I’ve thought about it a lot, especially during my time as US attorney of the Southern District of New York. Difficult situations, high stake scenarios sometimes require a little dose of humor. As these comedians know, humor is vital to any serious business. That includes climate change and the environment.

Well, that’s it for this episode of Stay Tuned. Thanks again to my guest, Jen Psaki. If you like what we do, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners find the show. Send me your questions about news, politics, and justice. Tweet them to me, @PreetBharara, with the #AskPreet, or you can call and leave me a message at 669-247-7338. That’s 669-24-PREET. Or you can send an email to letters@cafe.com. Stay Tuned is presented by CAFE and the Vox Media Podcast Network. The executive producer is Tamara Sepper. The technical director is David Teresure. The senior producers are Adam Waller and Matthew Billy. The CAFE team is David Kurlander, Sam Oserstaton, Noah Asalai, Nat Wiener, Jake Kaplan, Nama Tasha, and Claudia Hernandez. Our music is by Andrew Dost. I’m your host, Preet Bharara. Stay tuned.