Preet Bharara:

My guest this week is Karen Attiah. She’s the global opinions editor at the Washington Post where she has worked since 2014. In recent weeks Attiah’s commentary has focused on the pain many are feeling about the police killing of George Floyd and the racial injustice that continues to pervade the lives of black Americans. Our conversation covers her writing, the protests, and the anger and agony felt in our country at this decisive moment in American history. Karen Attiah, welcome to the show.

Karen Attiah:

Thanks for having me.

Preet Bharara:

We were discussing just before we started taping that when you ask someone how you’re doing, it can end up being a longer conversation than in normal times. But I’ll ask you, how are you doing?

Karen Attiah:

I’m okay. I’m also kind of lucky. When the coronavirus really took a foothold, I’m actually speaking to you now from Dallas, Texas, which is my hometown, so I’m kind of hiding with mom and dad. I have hijacked a portion of their garden to stress garden when necessary. They’ve given me-

Preet Bharara:

What are you growing?

Karen Attiah:

They’ve given me really nice creative license to… Let’s see I have planted gardenias, lilies, jasmine. Now, mind you, parts of the garden were in pretty shabby shape, so it’s going to be something to renovate in a way as we’re just navigating both the coronavirus and the disruptions that that has caused, and now navigating the protests and what we’re seeing across the nation. It’s nice, and it’s nice to be able to spend time with mom and dad and family as an adult.

Preet Bharara:

Of course.

Karen Attiah:

So I’m doing okay. I could be sleeping better. I could be eating a little better. Some days, Trix for dinner.

Preet Bharara:

Do you know what day it is? Have you lost track of the days like I have?

Karen Attiah:

Today’s Wednesday, right?

Preet Bharara:

Let me check. Yes. I should know because we’re taping on Wednesday, June 3rd at around 10:30 in the morning. Once I ask the question, “How are you doing?” I need to also ask the very broad but important question given everything that’s going on in the wake of the coronavirus and in the wake of the killing of George Floyd and the protests, how do you think American’s doing? Where is America right now?

Crowd (archival):

Say his name! George Floyd! Say his name! George Floyd! Say his name! George Floyd! Say his name! George Floyd!

Karen Attiah:

Well, I keep saying this. It’s just like the coronavirus and the fact that we were seeing the rising death tolls, the fact that we couldn’t even get adequate testing, you still can’t really get adequate testing, seeing the images of health workers scared to death because they have to rely on… basically some of them are wearing garbage bags, I was like, we’ve hit rock bottom. This feels like a rock bottom moment for American democracy honestly because a public health crisis is a political crisis very often, I would say. Then within the span of just, gosh, seven, eight days from a viral video of a white woman in New York City threatening to call the police on an African American man, Christian Cooper, we went from that to the murder of George Floyd and that viral video to protests and uprisings and crazy images of violence and arrests. And now we’re under curfew. So all that to say, when I say I thought we hit rock bottom with coronavirus, it feels like rock bottom has a trap door, and we’ve fallen through the trap door to rock bottom.

Preet Bharara:

Some people say it’s always darkest just before it goes completely black.

Karen Attiah:

Yeah, right. But at the same time, it’s a moment where so much is exposed, and we can’t run. We can’t go anywhere. We literally… Even though, yes, states are opening up, and there are plenty of people who are going out and honestly risking their health to go outside, almost any issue you can think of as far as our societal weaknesses is on display right now: health care issues, jobs, the gig economy, race, gender issues, women who are having to juggle health care or childcare, excuse me, and working. I mean everything is on display. I am prone to say that that’s a good thing. Yeah, it’s quite mixed. I just feel like particularly in the last several days it’s a time for action, to not really be quiet. We can’t hide. We need to talk about these things. We’re literally sitting at home. What else are we going to do?

Preet Bharara:

Everyone’s at home. It’s hard to distract with other work.

Karen Attiah:

Exactly.

Preet Bharara:

Look, I’ve been around a while. I’m a bit older than you are. But you have covered protests and written about some of these issues a lot more than I have observed, but this is pretty remarkable, day after day after day, not in one city. I mean the Rodney King protests back in 1992 I think were largely limited to Los Angeles. This is widespread, not only in the United States. There are images of large protests in Europe, in Amsterdam, in Paris. This is not the first time this kind of tragic killing has occurred at the hands of a white officer where the victim is an unarmed black man. Why do you think or do you have an explanation for why now the protests are so massive and so widespread?

Karen Attiah:

Even as you were speaking and I was really thinking about things going viral, uprising is going viral as well. Even just this morning before you guys called, I was looking at a video on Twitter from New Zealand of people doing the traditional haka, the Māori ceremonial ritual in support of Black Lives Matter.

I guess to a certain extent the way that we can very quickly take a video and see injustice being done is also the same tool with which we can capture inspiration in a way and capture that spirit, I guess, of protesting, of speaking out, of basically calling for justice to create better societies. So I think it speaks to technology honestly. We know that, yes, technology can be a tool for surveillance and for oppression, targeting, all of that. Again, it can also be a way to connect us all in many of these struggles that very much are global. I mean it’s not just Americans sitting at home. Many people around the world are still dealing with the coronavirus as well. So there really isn’t anywhere to run or to go except, in a way, out into the street. This notion that people, especially in places where the coronavirus has not been controlled, that they’re willing to risk their lives basically.

Preet Bharara:

Well, it’s a remarkable thing. I remember thinking that you have approaching 25% or 30% unemployment, 100,000 people dead, lots and lots of failures of leadership at the state level, the local level, the national level. That didn’t bring people out, but the death of George Floyd did. It’s a pretty remarkable thing. How long do you think it goes?

Karen Attiah:

That’s the question. We’re in, what, day-

Preet Bharara:

Eight or nine, yeah.

Karen Attiah:

… nine or eight. Clearly if anybody saw me on Twitter, I’ve lost all sense of time. I thought we were in June, and I was like, “The year’s half over. Yay!” People were like, “Uh, it’s still June.” How long does it go? It goes as long as we’re willing to sustain. That’s the question: How long are we willing to go at it, and what are we willing to do? Not just folks like you and me who are writing and talking about it but just literally the people in the streets. Maybe there is that feeling. For many people, unfortunately, with the unemployment now, they don’t have jobs to go to tomorrow morning. In a lot of ways, my feeling is almost like we are at rock bottom, so what do we have to lose in a way? Enough is enough whether it is… I mean at the end of the day whether it’s police brutality or the mishandling of the coronavirus pandemic, it’s a failure of leadership. Our people are being failed over and over and over and over and over again. It’s just tiring.

Preet Bharara:

You say tired. I want to ask this question. I hope it’s an appropriate question to ask. What is the principle emotion that you and others in the black community are feeling? Is it weariness? Is it being fed up? Is it anger? Is it something else? Is it a combination of things?

Karen Attiah:

I think it is weariness. Personally it took me, and I still can barely do it, a long time to be able to watch the George Floyd video because I’ve seen so many videos and so many videos that brought about outrage, digital outrages, hashtags. Maybe in that particular city where a killing happened, there were marches and protests and crackdowns. But I think for me, it’s a weariness, but I’m heartened by the fact this is the first time since, I would say, Black Lives Matters became more in the public awareness in, what, 2014 or so, this is the first time I think I’ve had white friends and acquaintances and colleagues say, “Oh my god. We’re sorry. We get it. What can we do? This is enough.”

This feels different. Black folk aren’t surprised. We’ve been living with this for generations, and it’s not just here in this country. It’s black people in the West, in France and in the UK who’ve been talking about these issues for such a long time. We kind of doubted… We wondered, “Okay, all these videos happened and nothing changes.” It’s almost trauma porn, consuming this death and then nothing happens. But this time, this time it feels different. Unfortunately, it feels different in the sense that we’re seeing just how willing, at least this administration, wants to go in terms of deploying weapons of the state against largely peaceful protests. So that feels scary at the same time. While I feel a little heartened and I feel like this is different and I feel, dare I say, a little bit of hope, I’m also quite scared when curfews are hitting these cities and when you hear announcements of some cities saying that media should not be here after dark. That makes me worried for people who could be killed, could be hurt, and have been arrested. It’s still a frightening thing-

Preet Bharara:

I want to-

Karen Attiah:

… the pushback, but I have hope.

Preet Bharara:

I want to press you on that a little bit because you mentioned Twitter. You’ve been tweeting, and I’ve been following your Twitter account avidly for a long time, and everyone should. You posted something this week. I don’t know if it’s a verse. It could be a verse. You posted it in verse form. You wrote this: When white men march armed with their privilege and guns, America doesn’t do much. Perhaps a little shrug. When black people march armed with anger and grief, America unleashes all hell just to suppress our speech. What did you mean by that?

Karen Attiah:

Oh my gosh. I don’t know what sort of Langston Hughes-inspired, middle of the night delirium I was in.

Preet Bharara:

I think it’s pretty cogent. I don’t think it’s delirium.

Karen Attiah:

I was just unleashing emotion. Because even before all of this happened, we were seeing what the coronavirus… the double standards in this country in terms of who was allowed to use force and violence to get their point across. So those images of armed white folks in the capitols in Michigan with their assault weapons demanding their way and demanding the country reopen. When we see the country reopen, it usually means essential workers who are usually black and brown, nonwhite going back to work to help this economy afloat and serving everybody putting themselves at risk. So when you see that and the police aren’t tear gassing them. They aren’t violently dispersing them. They aren’t arresting them. They’re allowing them to vent. Then we see now here, again, largely peaceful black folk taking to the street after someone has been violently killed, and we’re met with an insane amount of force, not just force against black people. I want to say that the pushback and the force, it’s white people. It’s brown people. It’s Latino people. It’s old people. The videos of NYPD, their cars ramming into crowds. I saw a video of… I can’t remember the city now, but an older white gentleman with a cane it looked like waiting at a bus stop who was shoved to the ground by a police officer, a SWAT team.

You just see how this just didn’t start today, but just how this country is so quick to use violence to quell any uprising that would threaten our racial caste order in this country with white men on top and controlling a monopoly, I would say, of the violence in this country in terms of the state. I mean protesters don’t have riot gear. We don’t have tear gas. We don’t have the amount of power that the police forces do. Again, all of these differences in how we, again, basically treat white and black people in this country including white and black speech and protest is just all on display. It’s just incredible that black folks can take to the streets to basically say, “Stop killing us,” and then the state responds saying, “Get out of the streets or we will arrest you, possibly kill you,” for demanding to not be killed. I hope that now people are aware.

This is where I have a question for you, Preet. How do you see things? I think it’s great that people are wanting to hear what those of us who’ve been screaming and crying and, for many of us, literally dying, I guess, to be heard. But I’m just curious about how non-Black people are seeing this and how you’re feeling about it.

Preet Bharara:

Well, I’m angry like everyone else. I’ve had a career in law enforcement, so I’ve seen some of these issues up front and have been called upon to examine them. I, like a lot of other prosecutors, have had cases where we weren’t able to do justice for the families, and that hurts a lot. In some cases we were. We bought a lot of cases against law enforcement officials in Rikers Island. I’ve spoken to the families of people including inmates who have been killed at the hands of racist, violent men. So I know it from a professional standpoint.

I’m not white, but I’m also not black, so I’m somewhere in between. So I’ve been taken to heart some advice that I’ve heard people give, which is this is a time to listen. This is a time to understand what black people are going through and what their opinions are. Maybe people who aren’t black should be a little quieter during these times and understand in a more visceral way than they have before how much pain there is, how much anger there is, and how much need for reform there is. Unlike in usual times when I run off at the mouth on a lot of things, some of which I’m expert at, some of which I’m not, I tweeted the other day that I’m going to tweet a little bit less and read and listen a little bit more. Do you have any other advice?

Karen Attiah:

That means a lot to hear you say that. I mean that’s really the baseline, right? People do not go out into the streets and do not burn things to the ground if they felt like they were being heard in the appropriate ways. You know what I mean? That is at the very least I think what people are asking for is to be listened to and heard. You asked earlier about how long you think this will go. Again, I don’t know, but I do think it seems like white folks and folks who just have more privilege, whatever that looks like, are taking stock, which is great. Even we have to consider, I’m sure, that those in law enforcement, these are their communities too. They should be. If you’re a black police officer, we’ve seen those stories actually of black law enforcement being mistaken for… well, not mistaken but singled out as criminals and being at the receiving end of the discrimination in the force.

But I hope is that it shouldn’t take cities burning and people out in the streets risking their lives in order for us to be heard. I would hope that when this particular phase passes or that we move on into the next phase that we can feel like our voices or perspectives are more valued. That they are part of the American experience and the American story. That at the end of the day when we are calling for reform and calling for police reform, health care, jobs, it’s not just for us. All Americans benefit. If I’m protesting against a system of impunity that will kill me, it’s also protesting a system of impunity that could kill a white suburban kid. I mean it happens. It does happen. It lifts all boats. So I think this mindset that it’s a black issue, it does disproportionally affect us, but fundamentally it’s about American society. It’s also to help protect, frankly, white people.

White people, the allies, I would say, are also putting their bodies on the line. There is a long history of white folks who have faced also the brunt of white supremacy in this country. They’re called race traitors. I’ve talked to some people, some white influencers actually, who said that when they started posting about Black Lives Matter and about this moment, they lost a lot of followers. Now again, granted, that is a very first-world problem. I get that. It’s just to say that allies, non-black, white allies, anybody who is threatening to disrupt this long-standing racial order that we have in this country, the system will push back against you too. Again, we know that this system causes harm and death and destruction. So it really is a moment where we absolutely should all be in this together because we’ll all just be better for it once this oppressive system falls.

Preet Bharara:

You mentioned cops, and there have been some images we’ve seen on television of cops kneeling with protesters. You’ve expressed some skepticism about that. What’s your thought about those images?

Karen Attiah:

Yeah, they can miss me with that. Look, first of all on multiple levels, because number one, where was all this solidarity when Colin Kaepernick was kneeling and has been effectively blackballed from the NFL for several years now for silently taking a knee during the anthem. That caused an intense uproar, and not just amongst people who you would think, oh, super racist white people. No, people who are nice, liberal, would you say, “I get what he’s saying, but he’s turning people off to his cause,” or a lot of the same rhetoric that actually Martin Luther King used to talk about. So I look at that and I’m just like, okay, so now when cops are kneeling it’s a feel-good gesture of solidarity, but when Colin Kaepernick was doing it… Not just Colin Kaepernick. We remember that people across the country, students, black students, people were also taking that same gesture, again, peacefully and getting kicked out of school, suspended, jobs threatened for doing something that was peaceful. Now people are wondering, “Oh my gosh, why are they burning cities?” I’m like, we’ve been trying to have-

Preet Bharara:

Why not take a knee?

Karen Attiah:

Yeah, exactly.

Preet Bharara:

You wrote this article, it just comes to mind hearing you talk, last week that’s really terrific, have a good perspective when we’re in it. You wrote a piece sort of satirical entitled: How Western media would cover Minneapolis if it happened in another country? You use the language that reporters from outside of America might use. There are a lot of good paragraphs here, but one that comes to mind, given what you were just saying, is this. I think you made up quotes and fictionalized people, but this is one, quote, “‘Sure, we get it that black people are angry about decades of abuse and impunity,’ said G. Scott Fitz, a Minnesotan and member of the white ethnic majority. ‘But going after a Target crosses the line. Can’t they find a more peaceful way, like kneeling in silence?'” The article goes on in that vein. You got some strong reaction to it. What were some of the responses?

Karen Attiah:

Again, I don’t write these very often at all. Maybe-

Preet Bharara:

This was not in your Langston Hughes mode. This was a different mode.

Karen Attiah:

I guess I’ve been putting on a lot of different character modes, different costumes in a way. The last time I wrote something like this was actually after Charlottesville. I think, for me, I do this when I feel things have gotten so absurd and hypocritical that sometimes fiction is the only way to laugh at the utter absurdity of certain mindsets and world views that are small and limited. Sometimes the only way to do that is to go bigger and outside. Most of the response has been positive. I think I have gotten some… I mean I was very deliberate with some of the language, some of the foreign correspondentese that I was using, like regime change or extra judicial…

Preet Bharara:

Ethnic minority and ethnic majority.

Karen Attiah:

A former British colony because you got to remind the Americans where they came from. I think most of the reactions have been positive. I did get some miffs, mostly white male correspondents, like, “How dare you? You’re mocking us.” I’m like, “Well, if you’re doing your job well, you have nothing to worry about.” Because basically what I’m trying to do is to mock mediocrity and laziness in how we look at the world and how we tend to view us as this shining beacon of light and democracy and Dunkin’ Donuts, whatever, and the rest of the world is the field. The rest of the world is the rest. The center or the metropole and the periphery. Very often those of us… My parents are from West Africa. For a long time I just grew up with these stereotypes and clichés of Africans, that we were poor and violent and lived in huts and swung from trees. I would see that in, I mean not exactly that, but that lazy, two-dimensional reporting in coverage.

So this was a chance to flip the scripts in a way that was hopefully funny but also a way to just imagine a different world, I think. It’s not completely about trying to make fun of things, but just imagine if we really did pay attention to the fact that right now, as much as we are talking about race and black issues here in the United States, I’m always aware that blackness is not just American. That in terms of the black world, Africa right now has been handling… at least hasn’t seen the coronavirus epidemic ravage it as everybody predicted that it would. That’s why I wanted to highlight that in the piece that maybe that’s a great place for black people to find asylum right now because we have these perceptions that black countries are automatically dysfunctional. I guess I just wanted to imagine a world where at least black Americans had a place of safety, I guess, a refuge. It was fun to write. Not so much fun to deal with the foreign correspondent white mansplaining to me as if I haven’t been a correspondent.

Preet Bharara:

They’re get over it.

Karen Attiah:

I’m over it. I’m good. I’m like, “Step your game up. Don’t come to me.”

Preet Bharara:

Here’s another thing that goes on. I’m not sure how people appreciate it. I’m just going to quote back to you all my favorite stuff that you’ve written. At times like this in particular, lots of folks including white folks, non-black folks quote Martin Luther King, Jr. They go onto Google, and they look up quotes. Everyone embraces him, Republicans, conservatives, liberals, you name it. You wrote about this, and you said in an article from a couple years ago, quote, “The whitewashed version of a heroic, non-confrontational King ignores the fact that he favored direct action and confrontation and was painted as an extremist in his time. White Americans hated and jailed him. Ultimately, it was a white American who murdered him in broad daylight,” end quote. How do you react to the blithe invocation of Martin Luther King by people who may not fully respect the rights of black people to protest in the way that they are?

Karen Attiah:

I think one of the best interpretations of this, I would call it, I don’t know if anybody’s coined it, but this MLK reflex that happens every time black people, we express our anger in the streets. I would say that taking Martin Luther King out of that context, that he did favor pretty confrontational, again, nonviolent… We have to remember Martin Luther King and Gandhi actually, their philosophies of nonviolence was so that they knew the stakes they were up against. They knew that the forces that they were fighting against were going to use force, and they knew that if perhaps people were able to see the, frankly, evil force that was being used on peaceful people that that would help to change minds. So I think that this MLK reflex that we often see in these moments after public black anger is not about… If they read their history, and Martin Luther King was here today, they would probably not like him honestly. What they’re saying when they say, “Please read Martin Luther King,” they’re telling us to be quiet. They’re looking for somebody to pacify the anger. That’s not what Martin Luther King was about.

Preet Bharara:

He was not quiet.

Karen Attiah:

He was not quiet. I keep having to tell people… Even at the Post, the Post was not kind in those days to Martin Luther King. I believe it was after one of his Vietnam speeches something like 168 newspapers denounced him or criticized him. He was hated. White America did not like Martin Luther King.

Martin Luther King (archival):

Now, of course, one of the difficulties in speaking out today grows out of the fact there are those who are seeking to equate dissent with disloyalty.

Karen Attiah:

Again, when we see this MLK reflex of this saintly, quiet black man, not only is that not what happened, but everyone seems to forget that he was murdered by America, by a white man. They killed him. They killed him.

Preet Bharara:

Notwithstanding his nonviolence.

Karen Attiah:

Yes, exactly. I actually got into a discussion with somebody about this the other day. I would argue this is where we look at how systems and how society works. I mean the character assassination. He was threatened multiple times. His house was firebombed. Again, his character was assassinated. He was surveilled. The white establishment at the time was trying to kill him for a long time, trying to silence him up until the moment that they actually physically murdered him. Then after that we know what happened. Washington, DC, erupted into riots, destroyed parts of the city. Not too long after that Civil Rights legislation was passed. Again, there was a lot of bloodshed, a lot of violence in order for at least legislative change to come. So I just wish people, a) would read a book before speaking and just blithely not understanding whose name they’re taking in vain. But I think it is a moment to look back into history and to understand that we’ve, in some ways, been here before, and in many ways this is different. A short answer to your very good question, I usually just tell people, “You’re not saying what you think you’re saying when you’re asking us to follow Martin Luther King’s example. We actually are, and you still don’t like it all these decades later.”

Preet Bharara:

Martin Luther King was not only not quiet, he was also not patient.

Karen Attiah:

Nope.

Preet Bharara:

If anybody has read Letter from Birmingham jail, which I’ve read a thousand times, it’s all about impatience. Some people have pointed out that most people forget that one of the targets of King’s frustration and, I guess you can say, anger was who? It was the white moderate who expressed misgivings about going too fast even though it had been hundreds of years. So people forget all of that too. Hearing you talk, I wonder, do you think we’re lacking of a leader like Martin Luther King for this time or no?

Karen Attiah:

This is where I am very interested in what our new activists would have to say about this. I think the thing with MLK and with the leaders in those times, they were fighting against actual legislation, actual segregation, a myriad of issues. Again, despite all the modern whitewashing, Martin Luther King was very against the Vietnam War, was very against a myriad of issues and American aggression not just domestically. To be honest with you, Preet, I’m not even sure if that is the right question. First of all, what we’re seeing is the people who are going out into the streets demanding justice, I would say that is a form of leadership, and they have forced us all to pay attention. Even though we don’t all their names, there’s not a central figure that has emerged.

I think to a certain extent, in a way, at least today on Wednesday, June 3rd, what I feel is heartening in this movement is seeing that people aren’t waiting for a leader in a way. We’re all trying to comfort each other and learn from each other, and I feel like it’s this collective solidarity that is emerging. I mean we’ll see. We’re only in, what, day nine. There is space, and there’s time for that to emerge. But I feel like people aren’t really looking for a leader. I think people are starting, I hope, to take a little bit of personal responsibility in speaking and in listening right now, which is good.

Preet Bharara:

I want to talk about language before we end and certain phrases and terms that people just invoke kind of thoughtlessly and other phrases people just willfully just don’t seem to want to understand. Lots of folks, well meaning and otherwise, just use the term “people of color” when they’re talking about George Floyd or other incidents like this. I’ve been thinking about that, too, and I take to heart what some folks have been saying, which is also considering what I said earlier. I’m not white, but I’m also not black. So what it the utility of the term “people of color” when we’re talking about this kind of violence that has been directed at black men for such a long time?

Karen Attiah:

Ooh, this is a whole, I think, podcast episode in and of itself. It’s a great question. Well, first of all, there are distinct implications even in this phrase “people of color” first of all. It assumes that white people are the standard and that everybody else has color. When you say, people of color, it automatically racializes those people in relation to whiteness. So I think in many ways sometimes, if we get down to that granular linguistic level and what it represents, I’m a little bit frustrated by that because it maintains that… Frankly, there are more people of color, quote, unquote, in this world than there are white people, but because the way that our world is organized and because through centuries of white supremacy, white folks are the norm, are the standard. Everybody else is of color. That’s one thing.

Second, to be honest, I actually saw this morning a really good clip from, this was on Instagram, I believe he is of South Asian descent. I think so. He was just basically talking about this model minority myth and how it relates to whiteness and blackness and, even to a certain extent I can relate to this because my parents were immigrants, that black people did not have a choice in coming to this country, black Americans did. But for those that are immigrants from the Middle East, from Asia, from South Asia, India, wherever, they often came because they were educated, because they occupied a certain privileged class and were afforded, frankly, privileges that black Americans didn’t have. It’s not to say that they were immune from racism obviously, but that there are these discussions and questions. I think he’s a 18-year-old, quite young. I’ll send it to you after this actually. It was really inspiring.

He laid it out pretty well. He’s just like, “We traded off of our privilege while black people were still struggling. Now is the time for us to speak up because they’re also fighting our battles too.” So when it comes to, quote, unquote, people of color, and also Latinos and stuff, there’s a tendency to silo these issues of race into just, okay, this is a black people issue. Immigration, that’s a Latino, Hispanic issue or Latinx, excuse me. For me, particularly as the daughter of African immigrants, I’m like, well, immigration’s also a black issue as well. Racial justice, the Latinx community, Muslim community. Also when it comes to police violence and surveillance, they have their own experiences and stories to discuss as well. Again, reform when it comes to what happened with the Muslim communities after 9/11 and the surveillance there, or Islamophobic racism against Muslims and against Sikhs even for their head covering.

I think so much of this we should also be having those black and intra-POC conversations as well. Too often it’s either black or white and those other communities are not brought in, or these other communities feel like it’s not their problem. It is everybody’s problem, like I said before. I’m really appreciating, like I said, so many different people that I wouldn’t expect to speak up in this moment are not only speaking up, they’re just expressing. It’s that everybody needs to know everything. Frankly, it’s not like every black person has read Frederick Douglass or Angela Davis or critical race theory. We are speaking a lot of times from our experiences. There are plenty of us who have done that work and have done the research and are academics in these social forces that shape our society. But I think right now I’m appreciating the humility in this moment. I’m appreciating that there are a lot of people who are just saying, “I don’t know what to do, but something needs to happen.” I feel like we can work with that.

Preet Bharara:

I remember after the travel ban, not to compare these two things, but people would email me and say, “I want to do something. I’m not a lawyer. Tell me who to give money to.” They literally wanted to put their pocketbook where their heart was when the president said no Muslims could come to this country anymore. So I think there are a lot of people who maybe don’t understand the issues perfectly but are good people and want to do something and are sort of hopefully paying attention, and even just going out into the streets is action.

Let me end by asking you, not to put a lot of pressure on your shoulders, but what should come of this? There have been some people who have said it’s great that this protest is going on and it’s so widespread. I’ve seen a couple of people say, within the black community, well, what are the things that are being asked for? What’s the list of reforms? What are the concrete things? You mentioned King and the movement in the ’60s. They were very tangible things that were seeking to be changed. Is that necessary here, or is just this moment of people waking up and paying attention and learning and listening enough?

Karen Attiah:

Well, first of all, even though this has gone viral for lack of a better word in terms of the protests, I don’t want people to lose sight of the fact that we still need to see what happens with this investigation in Minneapolis. We still need to see what any trial or legal outcomes and accountability happens for the officer who killed George Floyd. In fact, as we speak George Floyd’s funeral is tomorrow on Thursday. So I think obviously within a very local context specific to Minneapolis and, again, a lot of these issues don’t happen in a vacuum, I’m also learning a lot about Minneapolis’s, frankly, quite disappointing police community relations record. So if all of this could lead to reform and for Minneapolis to become a better, safer place for African Americans, that is tangible, and that is good. I wouldn’t want to discount that. I think similar to Ferguson, promises to reform in the local context with policing and with some of these bail reform, these petty fines and tickets that were landing people trapped in the Ferguson/St. Louis legal system, all that added spotlight and were addressed.

But on a larger scale, I think that’s a very good question. I think on a larger scale, for a while a number of people have been saying that at the very least why do some of these police departments have gear that we see being used abroad, like these war weapons. The demilitarization of the police has been an issue for a while, so looking for perhaps initiatives to address that. But I agree with you. It’s a different case than in Martin Luther King’s time. There are so many asks because it is a harder fight. Because what we’re fighting against is now very structural and very systemic from housing and districting or gerrymandering, gentrification to policing to health care. I guess what we’re pushing for, which is maybe the harder push, is a change in attitudes.

Preet Bharara:

Less racism. That’s not something you can legislate so easily.

Karen Attiah:

Yeah, right? It’s not, but we do know. We do know. I don’t want to make the impression that we haven’t at least seen around the world instances of countries that have police forces that are trained in de-escalation. I think it’s Germany, and someone can fact check if I’m wrong, but I believe there’s some countries where if a police officer discharges a firearm, that automatically triggers an investigation, lots of paperwork even just to fire a bullet, so meaning the impulse isn’t shoot first. It’s largely to think first. So I think there are models around the world, if we’re talking just about police reform, that people have been pointing to for years. Ultimately, of course, it’s pushing to vote. Perhaps pushing to vote out the person in office who decided to threaten military force on largely peaceful protesters. That is a definite ask.

But I agree with you. I think right now we’re kind of in the early stages of this new pushback. There, I hope, will be very concrete asks that will come out of this. But for now, we’re in the expression phase. We’re in the emotion phase. But I agree with you. This is now the time to coalesce around very specific wins, I suppose, that can help carry the momentum forward so that people don’t feel, I hope people don’t feel defeated. I already feel strangely, which I haven’t felt in a while, at least, I feel a little hopeful. I’ve also been looking at protest stances from around the world on my Twitter this morning-

Preet Bharara:

I saw that.

Karen Attiah:

… so I’m in a good mood. Dancing keeps the spirits up.

Preet Bharara:

It does.

Karen Attiah:

Singing keeps the spirits up. It’s just so beautiful to see the way that there are nonviolent but beautiful ways to express discontent, elegant ways to express rage. I’m very heartened that there are other people who in some ways are helping to take the burden off of black people to call for this. It’s exhausting to be angry all the time and sad all the time. I feels good to have other people share in that emotion. That already is work. That already is labor that I feel taken off of me in this moment. Yeah, that’s how I feel today at least. I don’t want to discount that. I can’t speak, obviously, for every black person, but for me personally talking you today, I feel a sense of hope in that the burden feels a little more shared than it did in recent years.

Preet Bharara:

That’s a pretty good note to end on. I want to say there were lots and lots of things that we mentioned that we could have gone on for for a long time. One thing we didn’t mention, and we’re going to have to have you back to talk about, is I know the book that you’ve been working on very hard about Jamal Khashoggi. You were his editor at the Washington Post. That’s another whole tragic story that could fill volumes and will fill at least one volume. So we’ll have you back when that book comes out. Thank you for your writing. Thank you for your insights. Thank you for spending the time with us today, and I hope to talk to you very soon. Karen Attiah, thank you.

Karen Attiah:

Great. Thank you so much. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Be safe.