Preet Bharara:

From CAFE and the Vox Media Podcast Network, welcome to Stay Tuned. I’m Preet Bharara.

Eric Adams:

I said I support my police, but they can’t be abusive. Because remember, I was arrested at ’50, beat by police officers. And instead of saying what was me, I said, “Why not me?”

Preet Bharara:

That’s Eric Adams. He’s the mayor of New York City. When Adams took office in January, he became the city’s second black mayor and the first former police officer to leave the city since 1950. Both in his campaign and his first 100 days in office, Adams has focused on crime and public safety. He’s also become a cheerleader for revitalizing the city’s economy, including its nightlife, in the wake of the pandemic. He’s been known for hitting the city’s hotspots saying, “When the mayor has swagger, the city has swagger.”

Preet Bharara:

Adams playbook has Democrats around the country taking notice. I sat down with Mayor Adams live on stage at Cooper Union in New York City on Tuesday evening. We had a wide-ranging conversation about his leadership style, why he believes this is an FDR moment, his plans for addressing homelessness, and even whether he might run for president. That’s coming up. Stay tuned.

Preet Bharara:

Hey, folks, it’s official. Stay Tuned won a Webby Award for best individual podcast episode in the news and politics category. The episode features my conversation with the prosecutors who convicted former police officer Derek Chauvin for the murder of George Floyd. We reflect on the trial, its immense impact on our country, and the meaning of justice in a case like this one.

Preet Bharara:

I want to take a moment to say thank you to all of those who voted and who tune in every week and to the extraordinary CAFE team. We couldn’t do this work without you. And if you haven’t heard the episode, it’s called the Chauvin Prosecutors and you can find it by searching in your podcast app.

QUESTION AND ANSWER:

Preet Bharara:

Now, let’s get to your questions. This question comes in a tweet from Turd Ferguson, who asks, “How does the process and vetting differ for SCOTUS versus chief justice SCOTUS? Meaning, I guess Associate Justice of the Supreme Court versus the chief. Is it just a timing thing, death/retirement? Or is it more calculated and strategic? I.e., is there someone who wouldn’t be chosen for chief who might be otherwise nominated for a seat?

Preet Bharara:

So that’s a really interesting question. I don’t think there’s really a difference. It comes up very, very infrequently. There’s a chief opening every few decades, it seems. And in modern times, we’ve only had two chief justices of the Supreme Court in the last 36 years. Little bit of history on the point. One thing to remember is every president, when there’s a vacancy at the chief justice level of the Supreme Court, has two options.

Preet Bharara:

You can either appoint someone from outside of the Supreme Court or you can choose to nominate someone who’s an associate justice for promotion to the chief justice spot. And then you get a chance to nominate yet another person to the spot that was vacated by the person who’s nominated to be the chief justice. That’s, in fact, what happened with Chief Justice Rehnquist. He was appointed to the court by Nixon in 1971, served as an associate justice for a number of years, and then in 1986, when Warren Burger left the court, the president at the time, Ronald Reagan, had a choice to promote someone from within or appoint someone from without, and he chose to nominate William Rehnquist to be the chief justice.

Preet Bharara:

Now, that’s not a promotion that happens internally just by fiat. Rehnquist had to go through a second confirmation hearing before the Senate and get voted on by the Senate. And he became the chief justice. And then his vacant spot was filled by none other than Antonin Scalia. Now, fast forward to 2005 when I was, in fact, working on the Senate Judiciary Committee, and Sandra Day O’Connor retired, and President Bush nominated John Roberts to be an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court to fill the O’Connor seat.

Preet Bharara:

On the very eve of the confirmation hearings in the first week of September in 2005, Justice Rehnquist suddenly passed away over the weekend. The Senate Republicans adjourned the hearings for John Roberts for a week. During that time, President Bush withdrew the nomination of John Roberts to be an Associate Supreme Court Justice and renominated him to fill the chief justice spot. So that’s an example of someone who was considered for an Associate Justice spot and when the chief justice spot opened up on the eve of the confirmation hearing was renominated for the top position.

Preet Bharara:

And then, of course, as you know, ultimately, Sam Alito was nominated for the spot vacated by Sandra Day O’Connor. So I think it’s the case that when there’s a chief justice vacancy, a president will choose the person who he or she thinks is the best for the job aligned with the ideology of the administration. And it doesn’t matter whether it’s a chief justice spot or an Associate Justice spot, but that’s at least what I think is true in recent history.

Preet Bharara:

This question comes in a tweet from Carrie, who asks, “Will you stay on Twitter under new ownership?” So this is a question that is occupying the thoughts of social media mavens who are on Twitter a lot. And it comes, obviously, on the heels of the news that Elon Musk seems to have been successful in making an offer of 40 something billion dollars to buy Twitter outright. And there’s a lot of debate and there’s a lot of drama. I don’t know what’s going to happen to the website.

Preet Bharara:

I write and speak often about Twitter being a good thing sometimes and a bad thing other times. Probably, for me, it’s been more good than bad, but I appreciate how terrible it’s become, how it can be a cesspool of hatred and animosity and disinformation. But there’s also good things I’ve developed relationships on Twitter. I can get my message out on Twitter. People who didn’t have voices can have their voice heard on Twitter.

Preet Bharara:

I tweeted a couple of days ago in answer to your question, Carrie, that I intend to remain on Twitter, at least for the time being. I still think it’s a decent platform for lots of good things. And if all the good people who are trying to be honest and true and reasonable flee the website, I think that makes the disinformation problem even worse.

Preet Bharara:

Someone tweeted just this morning, Molly Jong-Fast, something that I think makes a lot of sense. She says, “I don’t understand Liberals leaving Twitter because they’re mad about Elon Musk for now, and this might not always be true forever. But for now, this is the public square. Why seat it?” I think that’s a little bit true. There’s something weird that’s been going on on Twitter. Liberals and Democrats and Progressives have been losing Twitter followers over the last couple of days. Conservatives and Republicans have been gaining.

Preet Bharara:

I’ve lost myself, I think, like 10,000 or 11,000 Twitter followers, not clear whether that’s a function of people who are on the Progressives side of things or quitting the app, or if it’s a sweep of bots. And on the Republican side, whether it’s people who are rejoining the site after being upset about President Trump being kicked off the site. There’s a question about whether or not former President Trump will be invited back on the site when Elon Musk is in control. I don’t know what’s going to happen with this site. But for now, I’m staying put.

Preet Bharara:

As I said in recent weeks, I thought from time to time I would answer a basic question about the law, specifically criminal law, because we assume knowledge on the part of people that maybe we shouldn’t assume. So here’s a question that comes up from time to time and it’s this, why do we have a bail system if a guiding principle of the criminal justice system is that one is innocent until proven guilty? Now that’s a very interesting question. And you have to think about it for a minute.

Preet Bharara:

Obviously, the presumption of innocence is central to our criminal justice system. And it’s a way in which people can be protected if they’re charged with a crime. And generally what that means is, you’re not sentenced to any term of imprisonment. So you’re a free person in the United States of America. However, there are circumstances in which people are taken into custody pending trial. And it’s a fraught moment.

Preet Bharara:

Whenever there’s an arraignment or a presentment on a criminal charge in federal court … I’m speaking only of federal court because I know the state court systems in various places are controversial and the bail system operates differently in different states. So I’m going to speak just about the federal system. But when you’re first presented on a criminal complaint or a criminal indictment, one of the most important questions the judge asks is, what is the government’s position? What is the prosecution’s position on remand? Meaning, does the government think that the defendant, who has just been charged, needs to be held pending trial?

Preet Bharara:

And there can be two reasons to make that argument. And they have nothing to do really with guilt or innocence. They have to do with two things. One, risk of flight. And two, dangerousness to the community. So for example, if you have been charged and there’s a decent amount of evidence that the judge finds to be the case, with shooting people, doing harm, committing a rape, engaging in an act of terror, the argument that the government will make and the judge might agree with is that you’re a danger to the community until the trial is resolved. At which point, either you’ll be acquitted and you can go free because that’s how our system works or you’ll be sentenced to some further term of imprisonment. And the time before conviction that you served in prison counts towards that ultimate sentence.

Preet Bharara:

The second reason, as I mentioned, is risk of flight. If you can show that someone has a history of ignoring bench warrants, if you can show that someone has a lot of means, has multiple passports, if there’s some other evidentiary basis to believe that this person is likely not to appear for trial or for further court appearances, you make an argument to the court, that this person, if not remanded to the custody of the government, will flee. And you won’t get justice ultimately.

Preet Bharara:

Now, the interesting thing about arguments relating to risk of flight, notwithstanding the presumption of innocence, is sometimes the government will make an argument about the strength of the case, the strength of the evidence, and the likelihood that the person is guilty, even though there hasn’t been a trial yet. And prosecutors will argue and sometimes this argument works and sometimes it doesn’t. That one of the reasons you’re concerned about risk of flight is it’s a serious charge. There’s overwhelming evidence. The defendant knows and appreciates there’s overwhelming evidence. Understands that the likelihood of conviction is very high. And the sentence will probably be fairly long. And that’s an incentive to flee the jurisdiction.

Preet Bharara:

So an answer to the question in summary, though, there’s a presumption of innocence, there are circumstances in which the system permits the taking into custody of somebody before guilt has been proven.

Preet Bharara:

Stay tuned. There’s more coming up after this.

THE INTERVIEW

Preet Bharara:  Eric Adams has been a public servant for four decades. He was an officer in the New York City Police Department for more than 20 years, retiring with the rank as captain. He went on to become a New York State senator and the Brooklyn Borough President. In January, he became the 110th mayor of New York City.

Preet Bharara:

It’s great to be here. I want to get something on the record right off the bat. I’m the former US attorney. And I think it should just be clear that this is a noncustodial interview. And I will not be mirandizing you. So you had a big day.

Eric Adams:

Every day in New York is a big day.

Preet Bharara:

Right. But today, you gave a big speech today on the state of the city. And I have thought you were going to say the state of the city is full of swagger. Did you think about saying that?

Eric Adams:

Yes, I did. And we are full of swagger. New York is a unique place and it’s all about … People often talk about our buildings, our structure, our brick and mortar. But that is not our secret. Our secret, I’ll borrow from the phrase from Snapple soft drink, we are who we are because we’re made of the best stuff on earth of New Yorkers.

Preet Bharara:

Snapple had nothing to do with that endorsement. I just want to make that clear. So President Sparks stepped on a landmine because I was going to talk about some of the things you said in the speech. And it’s a way to talk about your vision for the city, what happened in the first 100 days, how you envision the next number of thousands of days. And you talked about New York in a particular way. And as she pointed out, you said there are two types of people in this world. New Yorkers and those who wish they lived here, but then you began the speech by saying, “I feel sorry for the people who live in small towns in that New York City.”

Preet Bharara:

That’s great for this crowd here. I have many listeners who live in small towns. Can you explain to them why those statements are accurate, statements of law?

Eric Adams:

Well, I’ve criss-crossed not only the country but the globe. And what many people don’t understand that when you are in a small location, it’s like being in a garden with one flower. The beauty of the cross-pollination of ideas, of culture, of music and sound, you can walk into a Chinese restaurant, have a Russian cook from a menu that he learns from his Mexican girlfriend that grew up in the South Bronx. The diversity-

Preet Bharara:

Is that a hypothetical or?

Eric Adams:

That’s the reality. So our diversity, when you move through the city and if you allow yourself not to be isolated in one different area, there’s something that you come away from. And many of the monolithic small towns, they don’t have that same benefit that we have here. Every block is a small town in New York City.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, larger than a small town.

Eric Adams:

That’s right.

Preet Bharara:

You have nothing against small towns.

Eric Adams:

No, love them-

Preet Bharara:

And John Cougar Mellencamp is fine by you.

Eric Adams:

That’s right.

Preet Bharara:

All right. So we had been through a lot, as you pointed out, in your speech and on the campaign trail, and as everyone here knows, COVID, inflation, unemployment, which is getting better. And you said something interesting that I want to ask you about. You have said on the 100th day, we’re a little bit past that now, but you said on the 100th day, this is an FDR moment. And I think you mentioned FDR in your speech today as well.

Preet Bharara:

What are the kinds of things … That’s a big thing to say. What are the kinds of FDR level programs like Social Security and things of that nature that you think we need, that you think you can get accomplished for the city of New York? And then compound question, is it an FDR moment just for you in New York City? Or is it also an FDR moment for the president, for governors around the country, and for mayors of other cities?

Eric Adams:

I love that question. I love that question. Something … When I was in South Africa, I heard Archbishop Desmond Tutu say a quote that I live by, we spend a lifetime pulling people out of the river. No one goes upstream and prevent them from falling in, in the first place. Our country is built on a system of a downstream mindset. All we do is wait downstream, it’s almost dysfunctional. We wait to have people fall in the river of foster care. We wait for children who are dyslexic, like I am, to fall in the river. Thirty percent of our prison population, they are dyslexic.

Eric Adams:

We wait for people to fall in a river, a mental health illness, 48% of our prisons at Rikers Island, mental health illnesses. Health care, we wait for people to have chronic diseases, instead of having preventive medicine in a real way. And so this is a real moment for all of us. I just believe that we are at a different place in our existence as human beings because men have gone through evolution, men and women have gone through evolution. We’ve gone from the Neanderthal to another level to another level to another level. They didn’t know at the time they were going through that level, that they’re about to transform.

Eric Adams:

We don’t realize we’re about to universally transform how we exist as human beings. And so this FDR moment means that we better get ready for what we expect in life. And it’s not what we expected previously.

Preet Bharara:

I think that’s great. But is there a particular program?

Eric Adams:

Childcare. We were able to successfully get the resources we need for childcare. That has held back women and poor communities for years. They were paying $55 a week for childcare. Because of our success, it’s down to $10 a week. We’re going to do dyslexia screening in all of our schools. That’s unimaginable when you think about it, when 30% of the prison population are dyslexic. We’re going to go into a healthcare system.

Eric Adams:

As you know, I had type two diabetes, lost my sight. The doctor said I will be blind in a year. I was going to lose some fingers and toes. They stated that I was basically going to be on insulin the rest of my life. We invested in lifestyle medicine plant-based diet. Dr. McMakin. We started reversing chronic diseases like my chronic disease was reversed. We’re now going to expand that citywide. So what you’ll see in my administration is doing, we’re taking New York City upstream. And this is the FDR moment because we’re going to change how life is in New York.

Preet Bharara:

So with all the difficulties with the economy, and I imagine that you touted the budget and your success in balancing the budget this year in the speech, how do you do these big FDR moment types of things in the current economy?

Eric Adams:

By running our cities more efficiently. Remember, this is one of the first times that we witnessed the budget decrease it. The projected budget was over $100 billion, we went down to $99.7 billion. And we are calling on the agencies to produce a better product. We’ve gotten so used to having a product that is not really representative of what we pay, taxpayers.

Eric Adams:

How do you spend $38 billion educating children? And every year, 65% of black and brown children never reach proficiency. That’s just unimaginable. And so instead of just thinking you spend more, how about doing more? And we could do more and we could do better.

Preet Bharara:

I want to talk about public safety as a cornerstone of your campaign. You and I both have significant law enforcement backgrounds. Could you remind me who the police commissioner is?

Eric Adams:

I have an amazing police commissioner, the first African American Latina to be police commissioner in the history of New York City. It is Police Commissioner Sewell and she’s just amazing.

Preet Bharara:

The reason I asked is I thought the police commissioner was you.

Eric Adams:

Okay.

Preet Bharara:

And what I mean by that is how much attention do you pay to the police department? How much are you managing the police department? How independent is the police commissioner from the mayor?

Eric Adams:

Oh, because this is a she. She was … Have you known Commissioner Sewell? You should have her on one day. She’s not going to let you-

Preet Bharara:

I don’t know, will she come?

Eric Adams:

Yes, she would.

Preet Bharara:

Okay.

Eric Adams:

She’s not going to let you run her. She’s one tough, tough cookie.

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Eric Adams:

You know that. But here’s the important thing. I’m the leader of the city and generals should lead from the front. They shouldn’t lead from the rear. I’m not going to send my commissioners, my deputy mayors into battle and say, “How was the war?” I’m going to lead them into the war and fight the battle.

Eric Adams:

Traditionally, the mayors had to turn over police departments in the thinking around public safety to the police commissioners and take a step back.

Preet Bharara:

But Rudy Giuliani was not a cop. He was a US attorney. But that’s a totally different thing.

Eric Adams:

Yes, it is.

Preet Bharara:We’ll talk about that.

Eric Adams:

And in the Southern District where you came [inaudible 00:20:33].

Preet Bharara:

I was.

Eric Adams:

And so it is imperative the partnership we have developed is to really bounce ideas off each other. And she is a person that does not come with an ego. She’s about, “How do I make the city safe?” That is her only focus. And she’s doing an amazing job and accomplishing that. And we’re going to turn them around [inaudible 00:20:56].

Preet Bharara:

So a lot of bad things have happened with respect to crime in the city since you’ve been mayor. In your third week, two young police officers were shot to death. One of the saddest things you can see. Just a couple of weeks ago, there was a subway shooter. Brought to mind awful terrorist attacks. The crime statistics are not good. Crime has gone up. There’s a flurry of hate crimes happening in the Jewish community, in the Asian community, and in the trans community. Not just here but around the country.

Preet Bharara:

I guess my first question about that is, what matters is not just whether crime is increasing but the perception of whether crime is increasing. What do you think the perception is of New Yorkers about that? And does it match reality?

Eric Adams:

Yes. When you see the increase in crime, those are real numbers. We have to fight two things. We have to fight the perception because perception is reality. And then we have to fight the actual numbers of those who are victims of a crime.

Preet Bharara:

And do you think those are aligned? Or are there people who are underestimating crime or overestimating crime in the city at the moment?

Eric Adams:

Nothing, it’s a combination. You get up in the morning, you read the paper, and you hear about someone was hit the head with a hammer while they enter the subway station. Then you enter the station and you see encampments, you see disorderly conduct, you see yelling and screaming, you see dirt and trash. Now what you read turns into your reality. Even if you’re not a victim of a crime, you are saying, “I see a state of disorder.”

Eric Adams:

So that’s why we have to deal with the actual crime. And we have to deal with those who are seeing conditions that lead to you feeling unsafe. That’s why we went into removing the encampment and our subway system.

Preet Bharara:

So I think that’s a great point. For you, as a mayor, and for your police commissioner, is the way to attack the problem of actual crime and perception of crime to go after actual crime? Or are there things that you can do that are different to make people feel more comfortable in their perception? Do you know what I mean?

Eric Adams:

Combination. I use the term intervention, prevention. Prevention, those are the long-term things we’re going to do. But intervention, those are the things we need to do right now. What does that look like? We should not have people sleeping on our subway system. That’s an indictment on us. There’s nothing dignified by living in those conditions. So we must remove the encampments of our subway system.

Preet Bharara:

But are those people engaging in crime or is that a different problem of homelessness and people who are unhoused?

Eric Adams:

Well, that’s one of the question we should ask the Go family. It was a homeless person with mental health illnesses that pushed her to the subway tracks. And the countless number of crimes has been attached to people with mental health illnesses that no one has given them proactively to services they deserve. And so I’m not going to wait until a Ms. Go was pushed to the tracks. I’m going to give people proactive support that they deserve.

Eric Adams:

And when we started this initiative of dealing with those who are dealing with mental health issues, only 22 people in the first week responded to our call. Now we have 700 people because we build trust.

Preet Bharara:

What do you say to folks who criticize you and say, “Really what Mayor Adams has done is to get those people without homes out of sight rather than get them help?”

Eric Adams:

I think it’s to the contrary. I think they should do what Norman Siegel is doing. Norman Siegel is putting together a volunteer group of 100 different New Yorkers that are willing to go in the street and speak with people. Before I started this initiative, I spent weeks going inside encampments talking to people who are living in encampments. I saw human waste in a corner. I saw people using drug paraphernalia.

Preet Bharara:

What did they say to you? What did they say that they wanted? What did they say their lives were like?

Eric Adams:

They say they’re afraid to go into shelters. They rather live on the street.

Preet Bharara:

And are they right to be afraid to go into shelters?

Eric Adams:

No, they’re not right. So what did I do? I told my team, let’s create-

Preet Bharara:

I heard that some people didn’t agree with that.

Eric Adams:

Listen, New York, 8.8 million people, 30 million opinions, but one mayor that’s going to make the decisions.

Eric Adams:

So what did I do? I told my team, after hearing from those people, I said, “Let’s make brochures and show them what they’re moving into.” And we went out with brochures, and they looked at them, they saw the conditions. That’s why we went from 22 to 700.

Preet Bharara:

With those brochures. Because I’ve seen brochures of hotels that I’ve been gone to. And there’s a little bit of a disconnect.

Eric Adams:

Without a doubt. But people were holding on to the conditions of what they thought the shelters were. And no one is going to tell me that living on the street, in a tent, with no bathrooms, no showers, no meals, no access to health care, no access to mental health care, no one is going to convince me that that is more dignified than going inside someplace, we have three meals, access to health care, access to shower, access to a caseworker, I am not going to accept that as a city we can pass by people that’s living on the streets. I’m not going to do that. And that’s not going to happen in my administration.

Preet Bharara:

Going back to your speech and some of the issues because you spent some time on public safety as, I think, was appropriate. You said something very simple that I think is noncontroversial. And you said it twice. And it’s interesting to me that in this day and age, you had to say it. And you said, “I will support my police.” And I think you said it twice.

Preet Bharara:

Can you describe why it is necessary to say that? And why that’s, a little bit in 2022, a bold statement to make and why are there people in your view and on your analysis who need to be told that the police should be supported?

Eric Adams:

Well, first of all, I said two things.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Eric Adams:

They went together.

Preet Bharara:

I know, you did.

Eric Adams:

I said I support my police, but they can’t be abusive.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Eric Adams:

Because remember, I was arrested at ’50, beat by police officers. And instead of saying what was me, I said, “Why not me?” Reverend Herbert Daughtry, the civil rights leaders told me to go into the police department. I became a cop. And I saw the importance of public safety and justice.

 

Eric Adams:

And so when I tell New Yorkers, support your police, I tell police officers, you won’t be abusive in my police department, you serve in my police department and our police department. So that’s the balance that we are talking about. But we need to support our police. Listen, I’m not going to send police officers on the front line and tell them to go after guns. We took 2,500 illegal guns off the street since I’ve been the mayor. Think about that.

Preet Bharara:

Is that a lot of guns compared to how many guns there are on the street?

Eric Adams:

Let me tell you something.

Preet Bharara:

How many guns … I don’t know the answer.

Eric Adams:

Too many. And here’s the real fear. Not only did we take off 2,500. When I spoke with Mayor Lightfoot, who took off 18,000 off the streets of Chicago last year.

Preet Bharara:

The Chicago mayor, yeah.

Eric Adams:

Yes. The mayor of Chicago. Here’s the real fear. Supreme Court is about to rule on open carry.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, it’s not going to be good.

Eric Adams:

That is … I don’t know if Americans realize and New York has realized what that means for us.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Eric Adams:

Second, ghost guns. You have some nut that can sit inside his own house and make a gun, no serial number. So if we don’t get away from the fixation of guns in our society, we’re going to have a major impact on public safety.

Preet Bharara:

But can I ask you a question about guns? And I’m 100% with you. And when I was US attorney, we focused on gun crimes and recidivism among people who use guns for violent crimes and possess guns if they had been felons. But how uphill a battle is it in the city of New York, no matter how much you crack down, when all these other states have much more lax laws? I mean, how futile is the exercise?

Eric Adams:

Well, one thing that’s extremely disappointing for me is that President Biden was really the first president to start having a real conversation about what we’re going to do about guns of other presidents passed over it. So 9/11 happens. What do we do as a country? We stated never again will we allow the lack of information sharing to have someone come on our soil and take thousands of lives. We have not done that with gun violence.

Eric Adams:

Every day, we’re having countless number of innocent people losing their lives in our cities across America. This is not only New York.

Preet Bharara:

Right. But there are parts of America where you can go to a gun show. And there are all these loopholes, not just ghost guns but other things. And it’s really easy to bring them into the city over the bridge or through the tunnel. Are you thinking about engaging in national action and advocacy to protect New York, not just doing things in New York?

Eric Adams:

We have to. And let’s be honest, when you look at the legislation that has been passed on a national level in Washington, has been passed because of assault rifles, because of school shootings, which is important for us who have done that. But you don’t see that same urgency. The problem in America is the handgun. But who’s the victim of handguns? Black, brown and poor. There’s never been an urgent move towards addressing the handgun crisis.

Eric Adams:

We need to have a real ATF leader as the president has nominated. We need to double up on ATF. We only have 24 ATF agents in the country, 80 in New York. We need to do information sharing to identify those gun dealers that are placing guns in the city through illegal means. And we need to really deal with gun trafficking. We were successful in the state and have them drop down the numbers for gun trafficking. So there must be a national movement. And my mayors across the country, they hear what I’m saying and we want to rally together to address it.

Preet Bharara:

Is broken windows policing good in your view, and is it back?

Eric Adams:

It’s bad when it’s abused. And I don’t believe in the cost of a broken window policing. When we talked about-

Preet Bharara:

But you do believe in the concept of, I guess it depends on what label you give it, in quality of life improvement.

Eric Adams:

Yes. And here’s what it looks like. Here’s what it looks like. Ms. Jones is waiting on the store, getting ready to take her hard-earned money and buy some shampoo. Some other character comes in with a bag and decide he’s going to steal everything off the shelf and walk out without paying. No. It costs money. Because if Duane Reade says to me, “I’m closing down my stores here because every day someone is coming in and stealing whatever they want and walk out.” But you know what happens? That low-wage clerk is no longer employed. That person that’s stocking the shelves is no longer employed.

Eric Adams:

So I’m not criminalizing anyone by saying you cannot do whatever you want in the city and disrespect other people. I’m saying it’s a standard of expected behavior in our city. And we don’t have to be heavy-handed as policing to get there. We’ve eroded the basic duties of being a citizen. We should have never legalized public urination. What were we thinking about? I mean, come on.

Preet Bharara:

I don’t know. It’s optionality as they say on the Harvard Business Review.

Eric Adams:

In the same … Listen-

Preet Bharara:

What do you think about certain prosecutors in the city who some time ago, former prosecutor in the city, who said we were not going to prosecute people for turnstile jumping?

Eric Adams:

Listen, I think it was wrong.

Preet Bharara:

That decision was wrong.

Eric Adams:

Yes, it was.

Preet Bharara:

Yep.

Eric Adams:

Because number one, we input into our budget an increase in reduced fare MetroCard permanent as baseline. Also, if a person come to the train and they can’t pay their fare, do you know there’s a process you can go to so they can get on for free? There’s a process.

Preet Bharara:

Is that in a brochure?

Eric Adams:

Get the information out.

Preet Bharara:

I have no idea.

Eric Adams:

Get the information out. But the thing is that you cannot have a city as diverse as New York, must run on systems and respect for the rules of being in the city. You can’t have a city with someone that’s decided, “I’m just not going to pay. I’m just going to walk on a bus. I’m just going to carry a gun. I’m just going to take whatever I want on the store.”

Preet Bharara:

So do you get on the phone with DAs and say you need to rethink this?

Eric Adams:

Well, listen, we sit down every week and we have some amazing DAs from Bragg to Erica Gonzalez to Melinda Katz to Bronx DA. We meet.

Preet Bharara:

You didn’t mention the Staten Island DA, no.

Eric Adams:

And Staten Island also as well.

Preet Bharara:

You mentioned four of the five.

Eric Adams:

Staten Island is not the forgotten borough with me. I spent a lot of time out there.

Preet Bharara:

Just the forgotten DA.

Eric Adams:

But we sit down and we talk often and there are areas where we agree and areas where we disagree. And that’s okay. I don’t know why we believe we must agree with each other all the time. Like I said, I don’t agree with myself all the time. So it’s about, how do we sit down and talk? How do we come to a middle ground? And there’s some policies that they have implemented that I just don’t agree on. And I’m sure there’s things that I do that they don’t agree on.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

We’ll be right back with more of my conversation with Eric Adams after this.

Preet Bharara:

So you said something that I think was really significant in the speech today on public safety. And it was just a line, a couple of lines but I think says a lot. And I don’t know what it quite means. And I think it’s important in this debate about what the police should be responsible for, whether we rely on the police for all sorts of things. They’re not quite in their wheelhouse. And you said something like … I took my own notes. I have a transcript. Not every 911 call needs a police response.

Eric Adams:

Right. Right.

Preet Bharara:

That’s a big deal thing to say. What does that mean in real life?

Eric Adams:

So what we are doing now is that we are doing an analysis of all of our 911 calls. And we’re saying, “What do we call on police for?” We have been indoctrinated with the belief that anything that happens, you immediately pick up the phone and call the police. There are some calls for mental health illnesses that you don’t need to police. There are calls for past crimes you don’t need to police.

Eric Adams:

And so instead of using police to do the job of dealing with real violent incidents, we should be using other entities, like we’re investing to use services and service providers that’s not police related. We have to wean ourselves off of 911.

Preet Bharara:

So what are some examples of things that it shouldn’t be the police’s job?

Eric Adams:

Someone calls and say, “My mother’s feeling depressed.” You don’t need a police to do that. Get a mental health professional over there. Sometimes the mere presence of a police uniform could aggravate the situation.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, escalated.

Eric Adams:

Exactly.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Eric Adams:

It makes it even worse. And so it’s about using what has been done in other municipalities of really weaning the public off of believing police is the only response.

Preet Bharara:

And when you say a thing like that, are the police with you?

Eric Adams:

I believe they are.

Preet Bharara:

Right? They don’t want to do those things.

Eric Adams:

No, they do not.

Preet Bharara:

And what about members of the public who are critical of the police? Are they also with you on that?

Eric Adams:

Yes, they are.

Preet Bharara:

Who’s against this?

Eric Adams:

8.8 million people.

Preet Bharara:

Is it just because it’s just easy to have … I guess we have 311 in New York also. But is it just easier to have the police do everything?

Eric Adams:

Yeah. And there’s something else that I realized in the city. Trump did something to us. You know that. And I said Trump, Donald Trump.

Preet Bharara:

I was hoping he wasn’t going to come up in this conversation.

Eric Adams:

But he did. And I said it when he was in office, I said, “I’m no longer concerned about him. We’re going to vote him out.” I’m concerned about what we’ve become. People can’t even go to Thanksgiving dinners anymore. We become so combative. We’re no longer deep listeners. We don’t seek to understand so we can be understood. We wait for you to finish the sentence so we could tell you how wrong we are.

Eric Adams:

People find creative ways just to disagree with you. People beat me a … I’m a plant-based eater that was able to reverse my healthcare crises and my blindness and my nerve damage. They said, “Yeah, but we think we saw you eat a piece of fish.” So what? So what?

Preet Bharara:

You know what, I wasn’t going to bring up vegan gate. But it’s not that they saw you eat a piece of fish, it’s that you had your press person say flatly that the mayor doesn’t eat meat or fish. And he’s a vegan. And you look great, by the way. I want to … Whatever diet you have, whether it’s 99% vegan or 90% vegan, I’m in. But in fairness, I think the issue was a little bit different from how you described it.

Eric Adams:

I don’t think it was. I think that we’re in I got you. We’re in I got you. We need to keep the main thing the main thing. And my press person is not running around with me all the time. And so he’s going to say what he wants to say. But listen, the bottom line is, why have we become a place of I got you, instead of a place I got you. I got you.

Eric Adams:

That’s the place we need to be, instead of focusing on, “Hey, this guy reversed his blindness.” Diabetes is the number one cause of blindness in America. Number one cause of non-trauma limb amputation in America. So when I say, “Just look what this guy is doing,” because I walk down the block, people are not saying, “Hey, did you have a red snapper?” No. They’re saying, “Tell me the diet you want because I’m getting ready to lose my sight.” That’s what it’s about. Let’s keep the main thing the main thing.

Eric Adams:

And let me tell you this, let me tell you this, this is the most important-

Preet Bharara:

You have more to say.

Eric Adams:

This is the most important thing to know about me. I’m perfectly imperfect.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Eric Adams:

Perfectly imperfect.

Preet Bharara:

And so are the people who are clapping. COVID. It is important to you, and I think to a lot of folks, that people come back to New York.

Eric Adams:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

For the vibrancy of the city but even more importantly, perhaps, for the tax base. People have gotten used to not doing the commute. They’re not coming back, not just every day but no days for some folks. How are you going to get people to think differently about that and go back to the way it was? That’s a huge challenge. So I don’t envy you in that challenge. How are you going to do that?

Eric Adams:

No, great question. Different levels. And one level is the most interesting level. My son’s generation, they are the most socially conscious generation I’ve ever met. My son would not have a cup of coffee unless he knows the beans were picked by those who have paid a fair wage and what country it came from. I mean, it’s unbelievable how his generation is just, people must be treated fairly.

Eric Adams:

And so I sat down and I said, “Jordan, think about it, you can stay home. But if you stay home, then that person who works in the cleaners that normally cleans your soup is not getting paid. That person who’s a dishwasher in a restaurant at a low wage or a cook or a waiter, they’re not getting paid. So by you staying home, yes, you can stay home, but the financial ecosystem says you must be back out there so that business travelers, which is 70% of our hotel occupancy, with ACC employees, the matrix, they all get paid.”

Preet Bharara:

So when you say that, I find that very compelling, what’s the response?

Eric Adams:

He said, “Dad, never thought about it that way.”

Preet Bharara:

And did he change his mind?

Eric Adams:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

Or are you working on it? It’s an ongoing process.

Eric Adams:

No, he’s back out. And that’s the message we have to get out to people, that our financial ecosystem depends on all of us being engaged. And not only that but look at the numbers. We’re seeing … The social determinants of health is talking about loneliness. England has a loneliness czar.

Preet Bharara:

It does?

Eric Adams:

Yes, yes, loneliness is going to become a major crisis. We have an increase in suicide, increase in young people thinking about attempted suicide. We can’t live alone.

Preet Bharara:

Do we have enough money in the budget to address mental health in the way we need to?

Eric Adams:

You never have enough to deal with mental health crisis. But we are leaning into the mental health crisis. We have an amazing team. I have Dr. Vasan for those who are familiar. He was with Fountain House. That’s why I recruited him. I was so happy to get him on my team, where he looked at wraparound services for those who are dealing with mental health crises, but we have to destigmatize mental health illnesses. Because when you go to someone and say, “I have a mental illness,” now you stigmatize them. We want to move into a space of wellness.

Eric Adams:

And wellness is not only physical wellness, but it’s meant to wellness as well. And when you start saying, “We want to create wellness environments,” people view it differently, that it’s trying to stigmatize and classify people to a certain form of illness. Wellness is wellness. We need to be well.

Preet Bharara:

I want to ask you about Rikers Island. When I was US attorney, we didn’t commence, we joined a lawsuit that already existed against the city and the Department of Corrections because of undue violence and excessive use of force. And there was a court order and a consent decree and a monitor imposed, and it’s only gotten worse. And the violence there is even worse.

Preet Bharara:

And my successor, Damian Williams, last week sent a letter to the city saying we are considering asking for a receivership and taking authority away from the city with respect to Rikers Island. And you responded, basically, I’m paraphrasing here, I just got here, give me a chance. What is it that you think you can do to reverse the worsening problem at Rikers?

Eric Adams:

Well, first of all, you should be commended because it was not on the radar above this. And by you compelling us to examine Rikers, it really put us in a place that a real blemish on our city for a long time. Rikers did not start getting bad January 1st, 2022. It has been a system of denial. The attitude was, “Hey, they’re on Rikers Island, the predominant number of those who are employed there, both civilian and correctional officers, are black and brown. A large number of women that are black and brown.” And we basically say, “Ignore it.” And so you do a spotlight on that.

Eric Adams:

The previous administration failed. January come, 1, 2022, what do I do?

Preet Bharara:

The administration before that failed, too.

Eric Adams:

And before that.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Eric Adams:

And before that, and before that. So Eric Adams–

Preet Bharara:

So what do you got?

Eric Adams:

Right. Eric Adams comes on, January 1st, 2022. I’ve come in with Commissioner Molina. Commissioner Molina came from a facility that had a special monitor. He got him out of the special monitor because of his changes. So all I’m saying to everyone, give me a chance. Give me a chance.

Preet Bharara:

But are you able, I know it’s only been 100 and something days, to articulate a theory whereby you’ll be successful in the prior three administrations were not?

Eric Adams:

Yes. Yes.

Preet Bharara:

Are you going to … Like now?

Eric Adams:

I know if someone coming up to me and say, “All of these DOM potholes, you can’t fix them. What’s wrong with you?” And I said, “Son, it’s January 2nd.” Come on. Listen, how do we [crosstalk 00:47:18] problem.

Preet Bharara:

You gave a big speech about … And I got you.

Eric Adams:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

And I’m not going to press you further. But you gave a big speech. It’s been 100 days and we’ve done all these things. And it’s an FDR moment. So you’re a little bit putting yourself in the position of being asked hard questions about concrete policies because you’re touting the things you’ve done in the first 100 days.

Eric Adams:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

So I think it’s a reasonable question in the face of increasing really abhorrent violence at Rikers Island, that it’s just gotten worse, not your fault. You didn’t start it. You’ve only been here a little while. I would just ask you to think quickly about why the US attorney is wrong on that point. You said something else.

Eric Adams:

Wait, you can’t leave that out there.

Preet Bharara:

Okay. I was letting you off the hook actually.

Eric Adams:

Well, I don’t want to be off the hook. We just want the ball when the game is on the line. I want the ball in my hands.

Preet Bharara:

Ball is yours.

Eric Adams:

The US attorney, he did an analysis based on historical problems in Rikers. And I respect that. I have no problem with what he said. We must convince the people of the city and the US attorney and special monitor that we’re moving in the right direction. And that’s what we’re going to do. They’re going to lay out exactly what their recommendations are. We’re going to implement them and we’re going to show the reason why.

Eric Adams:

Now look at what happened. We had thousands of correction officers who were not coming to vote. We got a thousand-

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, so people know there’s a huge absenteeism problem that got worse and worse and worse.

Eric Adams:

And we had a thousand returned. The violence in Rikers, we just did a mass inspections of cells. Do you know we recovered over a thousand shanks? Think about that.

Preet Bharara:

It’s a lot of shanks.

Eric Adams:

Right, right. We’ve moved from solitary confinement, we’re now moving into a punitive segregation that is not as abusive and intrusive. You go to see our educational program where young people are getting real skills, so they won’t be part of the revolving door. So we are doing things on the ground in Rikers Island. And that is how we’re going to get out of this mess. But we’re also going to stop the feeder. No one wants to talk about the feeder that places people on Rikers Island. And that’s what I’m talking about. Let’s stop the feeder that put peoples on Rikers Island.

Preet Bharara:

I know your team wants to get you going, but I got a couple of final things. I’m sorry, because we … You said it’s going to be hard for people to hate me because we are listening in your speech today. Do you worry about being hated? And then the famous question that arises is, would you rather be loved or feared?

Eric Adams:

I would rather be respected.

Preet Bharara:

Okay.

Eric Adams:

I would rather be respected. And a lot of my naysayers, they did something that’s revolutionary. They started to read. They started to say, “Let me stop yelling at him. Let me read his blueprint to end gun violence.” And you know what they saw? They saw one paragraph on giving discretion to judges. And they started to read these other paragraphs, invested in foster care children, crisis management, dyslexia, screening, homeless youths, some employment. They said, “Wait a minute, this guy is saying what we’re saying.” We’re not listening to each other anymore. All we’re doing is yelling at each other. Let’s just read. Let’s just talk. Let’s just figure out how do we live together.

Preet Bharara:

I think respect is a good way of thinking about it. This is not a got you question, but if I don’t ask the question, I’ll be questioned, right? So we can be very quick about it.

Eric Adams:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

And then one more thing, we’ll let you go. When your tax returns are available … I mean, how can I not ask the question? When your tax returns … I know you got an extension, you had COVID. I’m glad you’ve recovered. You look great. When your tax returns are filed, will you disclose them to the public like most mayors have done?

Eric Adams:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

Is that a yes?

Eric Adams:

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Preet Bharara:

Okay, great.

Eric Adams:

But here’s … Listen-

Preet Bharara:

If you don’t want to make a comment, you don’t have to.

Eric Adams:

No, I want to make a comment.

Preet Bharara:

But I want the yes.

Eric Adams:

I don’t like leaving stuff out there. Here’s what I was saying to the arrogance of the reporter that asked the question and how he asked it. So when he said … Watch how he asked the question.

Preet Bharara:

Right.

Eric Adams:

And the city-

Preet Bharara:

Did I ask it arrogantly?

Eric Adams:

No, you didn’t.

Preet Bharara:

Okay.

Eric Adams:

You were polite.

Preet Bharara:

All right.

Eric Adams:

The city gave clear rules. This is what we expect of our elected officials to show that they are transparent. They gave us the rules. My COIB report. My filers, they told us what we have to do. I comply every year, every year. So when you arrogantly come to me, because you’re not going to disrespect me, and ask your question, I got to answer you yes or no, do you know what you’re going to get? You’re going to get a no.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah.

Eric Adams:

I don’t have a problem [crosstalk 00:52:32].

Preet Bharara:

You want me to teach that reporter how to ask the question properly?

Eric Adams:

Yes, you should.

Preet Bharara:

Okay.

Eric Adams:

I pay a lot of taxes. And New York is going to see how much I pay.

Preet Bharara:

So do I. Good. So I’m glad. We don’t have to belabor the point. Last thing I’m going to ask you because your people are getting really annoyed at me. So the last three mayors of the city of New York, whatever you think of them, they all had one thing in common. Rudy Giuliani, Michael Bloomberg, Bill de Blasio, they all ran for president. And I think they were like the worst presidential candidates ever.

Preet Bharara:

They sucked so bad. And Democrat, Republican, Bloomberg, whatever party he was from. I think they got a total in three elections like nine votes.

Preet Bharara:

So my final question to you, sir, on this important weighty day, is it in the city charter that you must run for president? And are you competitive enough that you want to get like 11 votes? What does the future hold for you with respect to national politics in the presidency? And I know you will dodge it. But I had to ask that question.

Eric Adams:

No dodging. You can run America from New York.

Preet Bharara:

You were prepared for that. You were prepared for that. Is that all you want to say? You want to-

Eric Adams:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

That’s it?

Eric Adams:

New York … Listen, this place … I don’t think New York has really appreciated what we mean to the entire globe. The way it goes New York goes America. The way it goes America goes to globe. And what we do here impacts our entire country. You run America from New York.

Preet Bharara:

Thank you. To close, I just want to say the thing that I said to you when I met you some months ago when you were running at 11:30 at night walking down the street on Park Avenue. We didn’t even get to talk about the nightlife stuff. Maybe next time. And we may agree a lot, we may disagree from time to time, I’m just a citizen who cares about the city of New York. I want you to succeed.

Eric Adams:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

I do agree with you. The city is the greatest, not just in America but on Earth. It’s a really important place. It’s a really special place. I feel so much gratitude that I get to be a part of the city and got to have a job in public service in the city. I really wish you luck.

Eric Adams:

Thank you.

Preet Bharara:

Thank you for your service.

Eric Adams:

Thank you.

Preet Bharara:

I hope you have a great rest of your term.

BUTTON:

Preet Bharara:

Like many of you, I’ve been really concerned about the growing effort to ban books in our public schools and our libraries. And it’s not just because I recently became an author. According to the American Library Association or the ALA, in 2021, a total of 729 books were challenged, meaning a person or a group attempted to ban those titles from public libraries, schools, and universities. That’s the highest number of attempted book bans since the ALA began tracking them 20 years ago.

Preet Bharara:

This past winter, as you might remember, it felt like every week, we heard news of a different book being challenged or banned. Maus, Art Spiegelman’s graphic novel about the Holocaust, The Handmaid’s Tale by Margaret Atwood, The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison, and Gender Queer by Maia Kobabe, just to name a few. According to the ALA, “Most targeted books were by or about black or LGBTQIA+ persons.”

Preet Bharara:

But as we’ve seen across the country in recent years, threats to our democratic values have been met with inspiring and often creative responses. And I want to end the show this week by highlighting one that is, for me, close to home. And it’s pretty awesome. The Brooklyn Public Library or BPL announced this week that it is letting anyone in the US aged 13 to 21 apply for a digital library card. The initiative, which is called Books Unbanned, good name, is specifically designed to fight back against what BPL calls the increasingly coordinated and effective effort to remove books tackling a wide range of topics from library shelves.

Preet Bharara:

In addition, the library has made a group of ebooks and audiobooks that are frequently banned or challenged always available to library cardholders. That means, for example, if you’re a teenager in McMinn County, Tennessee, where the local school board has voted to ban Maus from the eighth grade curriculum, you can access the book for free online. If you’re interested in getting a BPL digital library card, you can apply by emailing booksunbanned@bklynlibrary.org. You can also head to the library’s website, which is www.bklynlibrary.org.

Preet Bharara:

And thank you to the Brooklyn Public Library for fighting back against censorship or, in their words, adding their voice to those fighting for the rights of teens nationwide to read what they like, discover themselves and form their own opinions. Every young person should have that right. And in a democracy, it’s up to each of us to protect it.

Preet Bharara:

Well, that’s it for this episode of Stay Tuned. Thanks again to my guest, Eric Adams.

Preet Bharara:

If you like what we do, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners find the show. Send me your questions about news, politics and justice. Tweet them to me at Preet Bharara with the hashtag ask Preet. Or you can call and leave me a message at 669-247-7338. That’s 66924 Preet. Or you can send an email to letters@cafe.com.

Preet Bharara:

Stay Tuned is presented by CAFE and the Vox Media Podcast Network. The executive producer is Tamara Sepper. The technical director is David Tatasciore. The senior producers are Adam Waller and Matthew Billy. And the CAFE team is David Kurlander, Sam Ozer-Staton, Noa Azulai, Nat Weiner, Jake Kaplan, Sean Walsh, and Namita Shah. Our music is by Andrew Doss. I’m your host, Preet Bharara. Stay tuned.