Preet Bharara:

From CAFE and the Vox Media Podcast Network, welcome to Stay Tuned. I’m Preet Bharara.

Yamiche Alcindor:

I think it might also be that you fall in love with this form of storytelling, that you fall in love with the idea of showing people, instead of explaining it to people. You think of George Floyd’s murder. How can you tell that story without showing the video, right? Is that not what we’re going to talk about 20 years from now?

Preet Bharara:

That’s Yamiche Alcindor. She’s the White House correspondent for the PBS NewsHour and recently became the host of PBS’ Washington Week, a public affairs show most closely associated with its long-time moderator, the late Gwen Ifill. Yamiche has been reporting since high school when she interned at a local newspaper. Before she got to PBS, she was a reporter at the New York Times. Beyond her role as an anchor, she gained national attention as a frequent target of Former President Trump. Last week, Yamiche arrived home after accompanying President Biden to Europe on his first international trip to meet with foreign leaders, including Russian president, Vladimir Putin. Yamiche and I talk about Biden’s diplomacy, the differences between print and broadcast journalism and how she stays calm in moments of high stress. That’s coming up. Stay tuned. Before I get to your questions, just a reminder, this week’s episode of Now & Then, our new podcast hosted by Heather Cox Richardson and Joanne Freeman is out. The topic this week is cults and QAnon. Subscribe for free and listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Preet Bharara:

Now let’s get to your questions. This question comes in an email from Jennifer who has actually two questions. Derek Chauvin sentencing is Friday, how many years do you think he will get? And also Chauvin’s lawyers argued that their client is the “product of a broken system”, do you think that argument will sway the judge at all? So thanks for your questions, Jennifer. Of course, you’re referring to the long awaited sentencing of former police officer Derek Chauvin from Minneapolis, who was convicted on three counts related to his killing of George Floyd. So prediction is always difficult. It’s a very individualized decision. Judges are sometimes people who surprise folks when they sentence, although in this case, I think it’s fair to say that a fairly significant sentence will be opposed on Derek Chauvin given the nature of the case, given the nature of the evidence we saw in the case, given how much the judge knows about the conduct of Derek Chauvin and given the relatively quick verdict of guilty on all the counts.

Preet Bharara:

Now, the prosecutors have asked for a 30 year sentence, which is in the circumstances, arguably fair and appropriate. On the other hand, at the other end of the spectrum, the defense lawyer has argued somewhat not credibly for time served and recall that Derek Chauvin has been in custody since he was remanded at the moment of his conviction a couple of months ago. I think I can safely predict that there’s no way on earth that he’s going to get time served. That doesn’t seem commensurate with the conduct and with the reputation of the judge in the case, Judge Cahill.

Preet Bharara:

The other reason we know it will be a somewhat significant sentence is that the judge has already made a finding that there were four aggravating factors that militate in favor of a heavier sentence. What were those aggravating factors under Minnesota law? One, and you’ll remember this from the testimony and the evidence if you watch any of the trial, one, that the defendant abused a position of trust and authority. Obviously, he was a police officer and a senior police officer at that. Two, the defendant treated George Floyd with a particular cruelty. All you have to do is watch the videotape to see that.

Preet Bharara:

Three, children were present during the commission of the offense that was proven easily at the trial and shown. And four, defendant committed the crime as a group with the active participation of at least three other persons, namely the three other police officers who were still awaiting trial with respect to their own charges. So a combination of the nature of the conduct, the egregiousness of it, the finding of the aggravating factors and the request from the prosecutors, I think signals in my view, and it could be wrong, that we’re looking at a sentence in the 20 to 30 year range.

Preet Bharara:

As to your second question, the argument that Derek Chauvin is the product of a broken system, I think falls flat. And that’s an understatement, as I think most people who have followed the issue and followed the trial and followed the consequences and the uproar over the killing of George Floyd and the movement in favor of criminal justice reform, they can all attest that Derek Chauvin does not appear to be a product of a broken system. He is what is broken about the system. He is the embodiment of it.

Preet Bharara:

And as Joyce Vance and I discussed on the CAFE Insider this week, it is an interesting strategy to take the most extreme view on behalf of your client to try to save him jail time when every single indication is that he will get a substantial sentence, that the defense lawyer on behalf of Derek Chauvin might’ve had more credibility if he had suggested some jail sentences appropriate, but not time served. I think that the combination of no seeming remorse, maybe he’ll make a statement in which he does express remorse, but I don’t think so. The combination of Derek Chauvin not expressing remorse, not expressing or seeming to express any contrition, his lawyer asking for time served and painting Derek Chauvin as some kind of victim in the whole regime of policing in this country and what he calls a broken system, I don’t think that’s going to fly. One final thing. You should know that whatever sentence Chauvin gets, under Minnesota law, it’s presumed that a defendant with good behavior will serve two thirds of the penalty in prison, and the rest will be on parole.

Preet Bharara:

This question comes in an email from Emily, who asks, can you explain DOJ’s reversal of Trump era asylum rules? What will the impact of that decision be? And of course, there has been a debate over the last couple of months about what kinds of policies the current justice department under the leadership of Merrick Garland is persisting in and what kinds of policies they’re retracting or changing or reversing? And there’s some controversy about some of those things, including whether or not secret memo should be shared with the public and whether or not Donald Trump should continue to be defended by the justice department in a private suit. But on one issue that you ask about Emily, there has been a change of heart, and I think it is for good reason. And I think it’s a good change of heart.

Preet Bharara:

It has long been the case that under asylum rules, someone who seeks to be a refugee in the United States can present themselves. And if certain circumstances and conditions are met, their application for refugee status and asylum can be considered and granted. The basis on which someone can become an asylee is if they can establish a well-founded fear of persecution back in their native country, a well-founded fear of persecution on account of their race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group. Now in previous administrations, that last category, membership in a particular social group, has always been interpreted to mean that you could get protection as an asylee potentially if you have a well-founded fear that you will face domestic abuse, domestic violence, or gang violence. Under Jeff Sessions in the Trump administration, he felt that those asylum claims in that last category, particular social group, were interpreted overly broadly, that it was giving too much benefit to too many people and domestic violence and gang violence were a kind of in his words, private violence, that shouldn’t qualify you to become an asylee.

Preet Bharara:

And so what happened in the last week is the Attorney General Merrick Garland vacated the prior attorney general decisions in a couple of matters that now make it clear that the Board of Immigration Appeals within the justice department should no longer follow those decisions and should instead revert to prior precedent under which victims of gang violence and domestic violence can properly present a case for asylum status in the US. And I think that’s a good thing.

Preet Bharara:

This question comes in an email from Amy, what do you make of the news that prosecutors in the Manhattan DA’s Office are investigating a Trump Organization executive named Matthew Calamari? Do you think they’re leaning on him to flip on Trump? Lots of jokes I can make here with the name, but I’ll refrain. Thanks Preet. Yes. I’ve seen some of those jokes on social media, they’re not very good. Will Calamari be fried, et cetera, et cetera? Look, I think it’s interesting. We’ve been talking about various other folks that the Manhattan DA’s Office has been investigating and perhaps putting into the grand jury and perhaps even further building a case against. We know about the CFO, we know about the controller, and now we have someone, Matthew Calamari, who started out as Trump’s bodyguard, and then eventually was promoted to be the COO or the chief operating officer of the Trump Organization.

Preet Bharara:

So a couple of things that are interesting about this pattern of investigative practice. These are all senior people in the Trump Organization, they can all be expected to have lots of inside knowledge about the finances and about the organizational structure and about who did what, for what reason, they probably also have access to information and communications that maybe were not put in writing that indicate the state of mind of Donald Trump and other people in connection with financial transactions and tax payments that they made or didn’t make. Another thing they have in common is they’re longtime members of the Trump Organization, which on the one hand, as I just said, means that they have access to a lot of information that might be helpful to prosecutors, but on the other hand, maybe renders them more loyal to Trump than to their own desire not to be in prison for a long period of time.

Preet Bharara:

And people keep asking the question as you have, do you think that such and such person will flip? It’s a personal decision. It depends on how strong the case is against them. It depends on what their loyalty tells them to do. Many, many, many people flip, some don’t. I think what has become more and more clear is that the Manhattan DA’s Office is still a step away from being able to charge someone in a high position like Donald Trump. And that’s why they’re looking very, very hard at figuring out what kind of criminal cases they can make against these other executives, very senior, but not at the very top, to convince them, persuade them, compel them to sign a cooperation agreement and give substantial assistance in a prosecution of someone else up to and including Donald Trump.

Preet Bharara:

What’s interesting about the reporting related to Weisselberg, the CFO and the COO, Matthew Calamari, is it looks like the things that they are going after them for are failure to pay taxes on certain kinds of fringe benefits, the leasing of apartments and the leasing of automobiles, and some other such things that depending on the circumstances, depending on the rules would be income on which one has to pay taxes. They do not tend to be in my experience, the thrust of a criminal investigation. In other words, the core of a broad criminal investigation. It looks like they’re trying to find things that will subject these individuals to a criminal charge and a significant criminal sentence, so that they’ll flip. So those charges don’t seem core to what they’re otherwise looking at, which is the way that the Trump Organization handled tax payments and made representations to financial institutions to get loans.

Preet Bharara:

And as I mentioned, when we first discussed Allen Weisselberg on the show, it does seem a little odd to me. The reporting suggests that the criminality that they are looking at it with respect to Weisselberg and also Calamari does not seem to have to do with the central things that they’re looking at with respect to the Trump Organization, their general payment of taxes, tax avoidance, and representations made to financial institutions for the purpose of getting loans and representations in particular about the value of assets, either inflating them or deflating them when it suited them. These seem to be tangential to that, collateral to that for the purpose of flipping them. And you would expect, and maybe this is true, they just don’t have reporting on it, you would expect that the people at the top of the organization would also be in the crosshairs with respect to what the fundamental investigation is about and that they might be co-conspirators with Donald Trump and others. But right now, it doesn’t look that way.

Preet Bharara:

Stay tuned. There’s more coming up after this. My guest this week is Yamiche Alcindor. She’s a White House correspondent and host of Washington Week and PBS. Yamiche means joins me on the heels of her trip with President Biden abroad and reflect on the packed press schedule, the meeting with Putin and why the G7 summit felt like a family reunion. Yamiche Alcindor, welcome to the show.

Yamiche Alcindor:

Thanks for having me.

Preet Bharara:

We wanted to have you come some time ago, so I’m glad you’re finally here. In the interim, you have become the host of Washington Week. Congratulations.

Yamiche Alcindor:

Thank you so much. I’m so excited about the show and feels so, so blessed and honored to be helming the chair at Washington Week.

Preet Bharara:

Are you nervous? Are you excited? Are you pumped? What’s the best word to describe how you feel about that?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I’m nervous and excited, and actually also really feeling blessed. This was a seat that was helmed by a personal mentor of mine, Gwen Ifill. And I know how much the show meant to her. So to have the exact seat as someone I idolized is mind-blowing. I’m also nervous because they’re such expectations. And I’m someone who really thinks about very deeply what I want the show to reflect and feel. And I want it to be relevant and to feel fresh and to feel like it’s following in the great legacy of the show while also being something that is mine and is good and is the kind of TV that people want to sit down on a Friday night to watch. So I’m a little nervous, but definitely, definitely excited.

Preet Bharara:

So you mentioned Gwen Ifill, who was a giant, and I remember being in LaGuardia Airport, when I heard that she had passed a far too early, what did she mean to you?

Yamiche Alcindor:

She meant representation, she meant someone who looked like me living in this amazing truth and living her dreams. She was holding people accountable, she was integrity, she was someone who was fearless and brave and someone who also who personally helped other people behind her. I would not be here if it wasn’t for women like Gwen Ifill, who not just showed the way, but also took the time to give me a hand up when I needed it to tell me that I was worthy, that I earned everything that I’ve gotten. Those are the kind of people that instill confidence in the next generation that are the reason why I think we’ll see another generation of amazing journalists and in particular, amazing black women journalists coming up.

Preet Bharara:

Will you do anything differently or consciously differently?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I think for me, I will think about how politics impacts people’s daily lives. And really that means having the conversation, talk about not just I think the power brokers in Washington, but also bringing in what’s going on in the states, bringing in video of the voices of everyday people, working class people, immigrants, vulnerable populations into the show. So I think I’m probably going to lean a little bit more into video and really trying to make it, of course, the story about Washington, but also as a story about how Washington is impacting people’s lives. I think that might feel a little different for people. I’m also excited in some ways to really follow in Gwen’s footsteps when it comes to doing specials. Gwen never only let Washington Week be about 30 minutes around the table. She had town halls, she went on the road, she met people. Those are the things that I’d like to do in her mold, but also do differently and go different places that she didn’t go and meet people that maybe she didn’t get to meet.

Preet Bharara:

Do you have any specials on the works?

Yamiche Alcindor:

Not right now that I can talk about, but I definitely have a lot of ideas.

Preet Bharara:

It’s just you and me. It’s just us. Can you say the general subject matter of the special?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I mean, I would just say it’s politics, it’s people’s lives.

Preet Bharara:

Is it about aliens, Yamiche?

Yamiche Alcindor:

Okay. So I’ve really wanted to do a UFO at least extra and I’ve gotten around to it.

Preet Bharara:

You should. Why don’t you? You haven’t gotten around to it.

Yamiche Alcindor:

As a kid who grew up watching Unsolved Mysteries instead of cartoons, that was my favorite show with Unsolved Mysteries, I am really, really fighting the urge to do a whole UFO special.

Preet Bharara:

Why would you fight that urge? Just do it.

Yamiche Alcindor:

Just right now. Right. I think because there are so many other things that need to be covered too, right?

Preet Bharara:

I know. But I feel like the UFO thing has been undercovered. I would like someone smart like you. Yeah. But come on, we need to get some PBS attention to this.

Yamiche Alcindor:

Right.

Preet Bharara:

So you used to be at the New York Times as a print journalist. And so I have a number of questions about that. What’s harder, print journalism or broadcast journalism.?

Yamiche Alcindor:

It’s hard, I don’t think that I could definitively say what’s harder overall. I can say what was harder for me. What was harder for me was broadcast because I’m a natural writer. I’ve been a writer since I can remember being able to spell my name, I’ve always loved writing. It’s my personal therapy, it’s how I get my feelings out, it’s how I just talk to the world naturally, it’s in writing. And I had been a writer for so long that when I got to the New York Times, and of course, I was intimidated by the idea of the New York Times, I still lead into the idea that I knew how to write and that that was a skill that would carry me. And I was able to do that and to feel comfortable in that newsroom and to have great editors who helped mold me into an even better writer.

Yamiche Alcindor:

For broadcast, it was completely something that I did not think I was ever going to get into and learning how to really talk to people, how to maybe sometimes slow down my speech, how to figure out how to condense something that I would spend 1400 words on into a minute and a half, but also how to let images tell a story so that the words are so particular and so precise. That was very, very hard for me.

Yamiche Alcindor:

From anchoring, I never thought I was going to be an anchor. I didn’t set out to be an anchor. So now that I’m anchoring my own show, I remember at the beginning of the show, it’s only, I’ve only been in the chair for about a month and a half now, but I remember being very, very nervous about reading a teleprompter, thinking that people were going to say that it was staccato, that I didn’t know how to read a teleprompter, when in fact, for me, the biggest challenge has been molding the show, making sure that we’re hitting the right segments, that we have the right sound, that the script is tight, not even the way that I’m reading it on the teleprompter, but that the way that it’s written is the way that it should be written.

Yamiche Alcindor:

And then our guests reflect what we want people to be thinking about that week. And also that we can go and lean into a George Floyd special and say, okay, there’s going to be other news happening, but I want to this week only focus on this one issue, which we did with the anniversary of George Floyd’s murder. So I think broadcast for me has been tougher.

Preet Bharara:

Well, I guess, for the teleprompter issues, did you prep in any way? Did you watch anchorman several times?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I did it, but I’m lucky that I’m able to see anchors do their jobs all the time between NewsHour and MSNBC, and then growing up, watching the local news that I know what a really, really good anchor looks like and I also know that I don’t want to be anyone but myself. So I also think that I’m taking the skills that I’ve watched other anchors do while also making sure that I’m completely who you would meet in the grocery store.

Preet Bharara:

When I was thinking about this interview and your transition from print to broadcast, I was thinking to myself, I can name off the top of my head a number of people, including friends of mine, who went from print to broadcast. I can’t think of really anybody, and maybe I’m just blanking, who went from broadcast to print. Can you, and if not, why do you think that that transition seems to be one way only?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I can’t think of anyone who went from broadcast to print.

Preet Bharara:

Once people have seen the big lights, they can’t go back.

Yamiche Alcindor:

I don’t know if that’s it. I think it might also be that you fall in love with this form of storytelling, that you fall in love with the idea of showing people, instead of explaining it to people, you think of George Floyd’s murder, you could write, there were so many stories that the Washington Post run won a Polk Award. Some of my friends on that project, Tolu and Robert Samuels did amazing work writing about George Floyd’s life. But how can you tell that story without showing the video? Is that not what we’re going to talk about 20 years from now? It’s watching the trial. It’s watching Omar from CNN get arrested. It’s my interviews that I was able to do with his family, as they were able to explain what he meant. To me, those are the things that keep people in broadcast because it’s the way that we will remember history.

Preet Bharara:

I want to talk about, and I’m sure you’re expecting these questions, some of your interactions with the president who was previously in that office, Donald Trump. And he had a contentious relationship with the press, but we’ll get to President Biden also, it’s not unusual for presidents to have or any politician to have a somewhat contentious relationship, at least from time to time with the press. But I think what I’m going to ask about, there was this occasion during a coronavirus briefing that President Trump was giving back last year in March 30th, 2020, when you asked a reasonable question.

Yamiche Alcindor:

You’ve said repeatedly that you think that some of the equipment that governors are requesting, they don’t actually need. You said New York might not need 30,000-

Donald Trump:

I did not say that. I didn’t say that.

Yamiche Alcindor:

You said it on Sean Hannity’s Fox News, you said that you might-

Donald Trump:

Come on, come on. Why don’t you people act, let me ask you, why don’t you act in a little more positive? It’s always trying to, get you, get you, get you.

Yamiche Alcindor:

My question to you-

Donald Trump:

And you know what? That’s why nobody trusts the media anymore-

Yamiche Alcindor:

My question to you, how’s that going to impact?

Donald Trump:

Excuse me, you didn’t hear me. That’s why you used to work for the Times and now you work for somebody else. Look, let me tell you something, be nice. Don’t be threatening. Don’t be threatening.

Preet Bharara:

And when that’s going on and the whole world is watching, what’s going through your head?

Yamiche Alcindor:

What’s going through my head is that there’s probably someone at a hospital right now who might need a ventilator, who’s really worried that they won’t have one. And that that person needs an answer.

Preet Bharara:

Are you thinking this is becoming a thing between me and the president, as opposed to about the factual issue that you’re delving into?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I’m thinking about people who were dying, I’m thinking about the idea that our country was terrified, that I had family members in Miami who were older, who were diabetic, who were scared for their lives. And I was thinking, I hope that this president really has an answer for a country who does not have time for the drama and the back and forth, I’m hoping that he really, really, really is going to tell us, yes, we have enough ventilators.

Preet Bharara:

When he said don’t be threatening, were you taken aback by that?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I wasn’t taken aback. I’m an African-American woman who has been in the media for a long time, I’ve been told all sorts of.

Preet Bharara:

Let me ask you this question. At that time, did you have the nuclear codes or an army at your back?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I had no nuclear codes. I had an army of Haitian praying mothers.

Preet Bharara:

That’s an army, but they weren’t present at the White House at that moment, were they?

Yamiche Alcindor:

No.

Preet Bharara:

And the president, did you have a secret service detail, armed secret service detail?

Yamiche Alcindor:

No.

Preet Bharara:

He did.

Yamiche Alcindor:

I did not.

Preet Bharara:

But you’re the threatening one. It’s amazing to me. He then says, we’re all on the same team. We’re all on the same team. He says it twice. It’s an interesting question. Is that accurate? Do you think as a journalist, that you’re on the same team as the president because we’re all Americans and we all care about getting over the corona virus or do you think of yourself in a different way?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I’m not sure that I can answer that question only because I don’t know what the meaning of team is in the way that he was using it. Of course, we’re all Americans, of course, having just come back from an eight day trip with President Biden, there’s obviously the sense that America outside of the United States, that we are Americans, that we want our country to be safe, to be protected, to be healthy, but I think when you think about the way that the president was misleading the American population and not wanting to answer basic questions about testing and ventilators, I don’t know what that means to be all on the same team. I can say that I was on the team of truth and of trying to get real answers for people who were, again, terrified because I think, I know that there’s so much coverage of the back and forth in the interpersonal relationships between the president and the press and all the people that he was attacking, but I think, at the end of the day, I think of journalism as a service.

Yamiche Alcindor:

And I think of how scary 2020 was, having lost people that I loved, I literally was thinking, the reason why I got into journalism is because we need people who are going to press presidents for actual answers about people’s lives. And when you asked me the question about, was I taken aback when he called me threatening? I say no. And I say no for a couple of reasons. One, because again, I was really thinking about those people, but two, as an African-American woman who has been in media now for a long time, I’ve been told things about myself that I know not to be true. I’ve had supervisors not believing me, not think I had what it takes to be an anchor or to be a writer or to work at the New York Times. I’ve had people take me not smiling as meaning that I’m angry.

Yamiche Alcindor:

As an African-American, you just learn to not be caught up in what people think about you and to know what you yourself are trying to do in the mission for your life. And you just go and do that and not get worried about what people think about you, because if you get bogged down in that, you’ll be bogged down in stereotypes all your life.

Preet Bharara:

Now, when that happens, when supervisors say the things that they say and they make clear they don’t believe in you, is that something that motivates you or at times is set you back or a combination of the two?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I think it’s both. I think it’s motivating and it’s sometimes heartbreaking. I remember when I was a younger journalist calling my mentors in tears saying, this person said, I don’t have what it takes to be a great journalist or this person said I’m not pretty enough to be on TV. And luckily for me, I have a mom who is the strongest person that I know, she was a social worker for three decades, three and a half decades, came to this country as a Haitian immigrant and worked her way to getting a PhD as did my father coming from Haiti. So for me, I realized that I’m coming from a line of people who people didn’t believe in and that I’m not the first person, I won’t be the last person to encounter people who just simply don’t think that you have what it takes to be great or that you haven’t earned what is rightfully yours, but I’ve realized that it’s both motivating. And I think at times, if you’re human, it’s a little sad.

Preet Bharara:

You want to name any names? It’s just us. It’s just you and me. That’s a no. Have you heard from any of those people since your overwhelming success, anybody said, I was wrong? Has anybody said, I’m sorry I said what I said or did what I did? Or have you reached out to any of them? So I’m just wondering how in the years, since some of those incidents happened that you mentioned with some pain, if you’ve had any back and forth?

Yamiche Alcindor:

No, I haven’t reached out to them, they haven’t reached out to me. And I’m lucky that I have people, the people that do reach out to me were the people who have motivated me and supported me. And I tell young journalists all the time, because I know I’ve now had to counsel young women and men who have been told themselves, oh, you don’t have the experience or whatever it is that’s on this checklist that someone thinks that you don’t have, I now find myself repeating the advice that Gwen and that Athelia Knight, who was a really good friend of hers and so many other women gave me, which is, don’t be distracted, don’t be caught up in what other people think about you. You have a mission, you have a goal and you have people who believe in you. So I don’t reach out to those people. I just know that I pay it forward by equipping the next generation with some of the advice that I got.

Preet Bharara:

And what’s the best advice you give them?

Yamiche Alcindor:

The best advice I give them is I think there’s two things. One, if you’re nervous, it’s a good thing. It means that you care about this. It means that you understand the weight of the responsibility, especially as a journalist. So it’s okay to be at the New York Times or the Washington Post or wherever you end up and be nervous in that newsroom because it will motivate you to not get things wrong, to be accurate, to be fair, to be caring. And then I also tell people, don’t get caught up in whatever’s going on around you. It doesn’t matter what people think about you. What matters is the work that you’re doing. And that will be the thing that shines through.

Preet Bharara:

So I want to go back to another incident with President Trump and just talk generally about what the relationship should be between the press and a president, whether it’s a Democrat or Republican. And this was back in November of 2018 after the midterm elections, and you asked Donald Trump.

Yamiche Alcindor:

On the campaign trail, you called yourself a nationalist. Some people saw that as emboldening white nationalists. Now people are also saying-

Donald Trump:

I don’t know why you say that, that is such a racist question.

Yamiche Alcindor:

There’s some people that say that now the Republican Party is seen as supporting white nationalists because of your rhetoric. What do you make of that?

Donald Trump:

Oh, I don’t believe that. I don’t believe that.

Preet Bharara:

What were you thinking then?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I was thinking, wow, he really just said that. And I was thinking, because that was the first time that we had an interaction that I was like, wait, what? So that was November, 2018.

Preet Bharara:

I remember that. And your expression, you must be really good at poker. Are you very good at poker?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I don’t play poker.

Preet Bharara:

You should play. Here’s two things you should do when we’re done with the show, you should play poker and you should set up a special on the UFOs.

Yamiche Alcindor:

Okay.

Preet Bharara:

All right. So here thinking, what did he say and how were you processing what he said?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I was processing it by thinking he’s deflecting the question, because as a journalist, you’re taught to listen really intently and to try to make sure that your question is actually being answered. So I remember thinking, okay, wow, he really just said that, he called it racist, and two, he’s not answering me. And that’s an issue, because yes or no, are you trying to embolden white nationalists, white supremacists? We need to know. And I think fast forward past January 6 and the conversation that our nation has happening, isn’t that one of the defining questions of the Trump presidency now? Were you really trying to embolden these racist, crazy people who then broke into our Capitol? Or was this unintentional and you were just saying this out of political expediency?

Yamiche Alcindor:

So I think that underlying question about the role of white supremacy in his administration, and from a journalistic point of view, I know there are a lot of people who are critical of the president, of course, who would say, of course, he’s racist. Of course, he was trying to do this. That’s not the stance that I would take because I’m a journalist, but I think that that’s the question that I would say, if you look at four years of Donald Trump, that is the question.

Preet Bharara:

Does it occur to you ever in those moments, either with a sitting president or one of the other public officials you’ve interviewed over the years, when they make an accusation like that, accuse you of being threatening when you’re not, or asking a racist question when it’s not? Do you ever think to yourself, in this moment, I should defend myself and respond and rebut?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I don’t, because I’m really thinking of it as it’s not about me, journalism is supposed to be, it’s not about you. Another big thing that you’re taught is you don’t want to be the story. So the last thing I’m trying to do is get into a back and forth with the president of the United States, a personal back and forth to try to defend myself. And aftermath, I was a little surprised that he knew that I had worked for the New York Times and then I had switched jobs because you don’t think that the president of the United States knows your resume per se, but at the end of the day, in the moment, I’m not thinking, oh yeah, I have to really defend my honor. I’m thinking, he’s not answering the question. This is the leader of the “free world” is the way that we often describe the president. He’s the leader of the United States. And a lot of times, especially in 2020, we’re in the middle of like a literal pandemic. I need you to give us some answers for real, this is not kind of just for fun.

Preet Bharara:

When you’re talking about this, this journalistic principle of not becoming the story, and I know you take that to heart because I went back and I looked and I direct messaged you a couple of days after that incident with Trump in March of 2020, I think I DMed, as they say on April 2nd, to ask you to come on the podcast. And you very politely said that you wouldn’t be able to do that. And then in preparing for the interview, I realized you didn’t do any press. After that, the Washington Post asked for you and a spokesman for PBS NewsHour said that you were not available. And they made a statement on your behalf about how, it says, Yamiche is a highly professional, talented reporter. We cannot be more proud to have her as part of the PBS NewsHour. She’s doing exactly what is expected of a free press in our democracy. And that was another attempt not to make it about yourself. And yet, you became a big story, in part because you were so unflappable and handled it with such grace and poise. Did that surprise you?

Yamiche Alcindor:

It didn’t. I mean, I guess it surprised me because I think as a reporter, especially when it’s someone who gets into print, people don’t know what you even look like, with a name like Yamiche Alcindor, people couldn’t even say my name for the first, I don’t know, 10 years.

Preet Bharara:

I know the feeling. I know the feeling.

Yamiche Alcindor:

So for me to go from that to then it’s like, oh, Yamiche, it’s a one word. I don’t even have to say her last name. Everyone knows who I’m talking about. I think that that’s heartening. I also think it’s heartening that people were comparing me to all the great journalists that I grew up idolizing. I think that that to me, in some ways reminded me that I was doing my life’s passion and I was exactly where I needed to be. I was in my purpose, which I think about a lot. I’m someone who’s, I should say, very obsessed with Oprah and all of her advice. And I try to be really intentional.

Yamiche Alcindor:

So I’m sorry that I didn’t go on your podcast when you asked me initially, but for me, it was really like, let me just put my head down and do this work, because again, I’m grounded, I’d have to tell you by talking to my family every day, who were like, yes, of course, it’s amazing that you’re being called out for this and that you’re doing this. And then at the same time, I’m talking to them about how are they paying their rent and such and such is in the hospital and we’re not going to know if this person’s going to make it, and they’re worried they don’t have enough ventilators. Those are the things that ground me. So it’s like, yes, you can take a kind of victory lap and say, this is great that I’m getting recognition for doing my job with integrity, but then you’re also grabbing the idea that so many Americans don’t even have time to take victory laps because people were just trying to survive.

Preet Bharara:

My conversation with Yamiche Alcindor continues after this. Do you think that Donald Trump has a particular problem with women journalists and even more specifically with black women journalists?

Yamiche Alcindor:

It’s hard for me to answer that question. I know some people will say yes, because of, obviously, there was that one week where he attacked me and then he attacked April Ryan, who wasn’t even standing in front of him, and then he attacked Abby Phillip, who’s a good friend of mine, but I also think that I watched him attack men in some really, really vicious ways. I think about Jonathan Karl and Peter Alexander. So I’m not sure I’m the best person to answer that question. I definitely think I know that some people think he has a particular biting sense with women of color.

Yamiche Alcindor:

I think having watched him, I also think that he is ready to attack anyone, and especially, I would say, people who he feels like are checking him, are really exposing his inability to tell the truth at times. And I think about the fact that, I think about Lesley Stahl a lot, it’s CBS, and the interview that she did, where he got up and walked away. Then you think about what that meant that he would walk out on a woman journalist. I don’t remember him walking out on any men. I could be wrong, but I think that is a window into something there. But in some ways, as a journalist, in some ways, I reserve the idea to know whether or not what’s going on in Former President Trump’s head is specifically focused on women and women of color or whether it’s focused on anyone who’s exposing the fact that he’s not at times telling the truth.

Preet Bharara:

When someone cuts you off on the highway, do you maintain your calm then too?

Yamiche Alcindor:

Do I mean-

Preet Bharara:

Is that just the way you are or you work hard at it at the journalism job?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I definitely work hard at it at the journalism job, but I also, I mean, I’m now married for three years.

Preet Bharara:

That’s good training.

Yamiche Alcindor:

Right, everyone who’s married also realizes that you have to realize that you’re a flawed human being and that you’re living with a flawed human being and that you’ve signed the contract to say we’re going to live together for the rest of our lives. So I think that the sense of calm that I feel has to be in other parts of my life. And I also think that frankly, if we even zoom out, it’s the way that black people have survived, right? Like I didn’t learn to be calm just because I think for me personally, maybe other people who aren’t African-American have their other experiences that I think are the way that they figure out to be calm, but as an African-American, you’re taught to be calm because it’s life or death. My brother, my husband’s six feet black men, they have to be calm. You think of Omar getting arrested on CNN and calmly explaining, I’m on live television, I’m a reporter.

Omar Jimenez:

I’m sorry.

Speaker 5:

You’re under arrest.

Omar Jimenez:

Okay. Do you mind telling me why I’m under arrest, sir? Why am I under arrest sir? [inaudible 00:38:15].

Yamiche Alcindor:

You see the interactions and realize that black people in particular, I think people of color, I know my friends who are Pakistani and who are Middle Eastern, they also have a very sense of calm at the airport when they’re possibly being harassed and possibly being targeted. I remember after 9/11, some of my dear friends, they had to be very calm because it was that or something much, much worse. So I think my level of calm has been, yes, it’s because of being a journalist, but I think a lot of it is also life experiences.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. That makes total sense. So you just came back from a trip with President Biden, his first overseas trip as president. Can you just describe like how it works with the journalism group accompanying a sitting president on such a momentous trip like that? Do you sleep at all? Do you stay in the same hotel as the president? How do you fly there? Do you have the schedule in advance? Could you paint a picture of what that trip is like?

Yamiche Alcindor:

Yeah. So there are really two groups of journalists. There’s the journalists who are part of the protective pool, which is this group of journalists who stay with the president all times, except for when he’s literally at the White House sleeping. That protective pool flies on Air Force One. They go to whatever meetings he’s going to, either they’re in the meeting or they’re holding in a room somewhere very close by. They are with the president all times. They’re not usually sleeping in the same hotel from my understanding most, sometimes the president’s sleeping somewhere else, but they’re nearby in a different hotel. And then I was part of a kind of extended pool of reporters who were flying on a press charter. It was still organized by the White House, but that’s a separate plane. We were on that plane. You don’t get much sleep because there are all sorts of security sweeps, you don’t get to really see the cities that much. We were in the UK for a while, so I was able to walk around and get some good Indian food at one point, but for the most part-

Preet Bharara:

Where did you go for Indian food?

Yamiche Alcindor:

We were in Cornwall. I forgot what the name of the restaurant is, but I was just wandering around and googling Indian food on my phone because I couldn’t eat beans or meat with pastries, not one more time. So I was frantically just looking for Indian food and I found it, thank God. And then in Brussels, I basically didn’t see Brussels at all because we were in there, it was NATO. It was so quick. We hardly slept again, but you were staying in the hotel room, you wake up really early, you have the president’s schedule of what he’s going to do. So you’re watching all of his interactions.

Yamiche Alcindor:

For the summit in Switzerland, I really didn’t see Switzerland because I was up. I basically slept probably three hours that entire trip between because you’re on East Coast Time. So I was doing hits at one or two o’clock in the morning in Swiss time and then getting up at like 3:00 or 4:00, or I would say doing hits at like one o’clock in the morning and then waking up at like 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning to then start the day on Swiss time and go to heading to the summit. So it’s a kind of grueling schedule. Usually after these, you see at least some journalists, I know I did it when I went to Europe with President Trump, you would then take a week to go to Paris and enjoy Europe. Because of the coronavirus and all the regulations, I couldn’t do that this time around.

Yamiche Alcindor:

But that’s kind of the good stuff on the back end, but at the end of the day, it’s also, of course, you get the sense of incredible honor, right? Like I saw President Putin and President Biden in-person about 10 feet away from me, you’re witnessing this incredible history. So I think it’s also in this is kind of out of body experience where you’re saying like, wow, I’m really here. I mean, let’s think about Rachel Scott, who was just, I mean, so amazing. It’s ABC News reporter, young black woman. She was able to question someone who President Biden is called a dictator, who was jailed an opposition leader to say.

Rachel Scott:

The list of your political opponents who are dead, imprisoned or jailed is long. Alexey Navalny’s organization calls for free and fair elections and end to corruption, but Russia has outlawed that organization calling it extremists. And you have now prevented anyone who supports him to run for office. So my question is, Mr. President, what are you so afraid of?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I mean, those are just incredibly historic moments that we’ll think about for the rest of our lives. And I think about Rachel all the time, because she’s a young reporter, such a smart and amazing reporter, and she was able to really write her way into history.

Preet Bharara:

Let’s talk about the substance of the meeting further to what you just said, or the various meetings. You said before the trip, “President Biden, for his first overseas trip as commander in chief, is really coming to a group of European leaders who are familiar with him. Experts tell me this is going to be a sort of lovefest. But it’s also going to feel like a family reunion. And if anyone’s ever been to a family reunion, that means there will be love, but there will also be drama.” Did that bear out?

Yamiche Alcindor:

It did. There was obviously this real relief among European leaders. I’d only covered NATO and G7s when Former President Trump was in office, I’d never covered any other ones. So they were these kinds of really hectic things where people were fighting and people were getting elbowed and it was just, other journalists would tell me, this is not normal. And I’d be like, “What is going on? We’re nowhere near the schedule.”

Preet Bharara:

Did Biden elbow anyone? Did you witness Biden elbow any world leaders?

Yamiche Alcindor:

Elbows bumped people.

Preet Bharara:

As a greeting.

Yamiche Alcindor:

As a greeting, but he did not elbow anyone out of the way. So I think there was this real lovefest and there was this familiarity. There was also this sense that yes, there were real questions about how to move forward on climate change and how to move forward with how to treat China. And this was the first time we saw China called out in the G7 Communique, but there’s still real questions about how much to engage in it and it with the 5G and Huawei and whether or not President Biden can convince some of the other European leaders to see China in the way that he does, which is really as an adversary and as a country that needs to be called out regularly about it’s human rights violations. So I think there was a little tiny bit of drama, not anything like when Former President Trump was there.

Preet Bharara:

Was it palpable to journalists and other bystanders that the mood and the tone in the European meetings was more jovial? I mean, how clear was it?

Yamiche Alcindor:

It was pretty clear. I mean, President Biden, of course, said, America is back over and over again. And I remember the French President Emmanuel Macron, he said, yeah, we’re so happy to have America back in the fold, basically. It wasn’t his exact words, but and he had this kind of real smile on his face and they were meeting by the beach. They just looked like they were so happy. And Angela Merkel, she wanted to talk about Afghanistan and kind of other things that were going on in terms of defense, but she also looked like someone who was like, okay, I can deal with this American president. So the tone change was absolutely palpable.

Preet Bharara:

And did everyone go sing karaoke afterwards?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I’m not sure.

Preet Bharara:

Do you think that Joe Biden and his team felt like they accomplished whatever goals they set out to accomplish on this trip?

Yamiche Alcindor:

Yes. I can say that with confidence because I’ve talked to a number of White House officials after the trip and they feel really good about the way that it went. They feel really good about the way that President Biden was able to really get in there, meet with European leaders, get some of his personal, and I should say personal, meaning his personal goals for the country, into documents like the G7 Communique that mentioned China, that mentioned Russia, that mentioned forced labor, which was something that the United States in particular was pushing for to call out on China and its use of forced labor.

Yamiche Alcindor:

So they feel really good about it. And they also feel really good about the summit. They’re very confident that there should have been two separate press conferences so that the American press could get their questions to Biden and that President Putin was able to get pushed in that way by so many people, including of course, I have to just keep saying, Rachel Scott, because she’s just so amazing. So I think that they feel really good about the way that that meeting went and the way that the trip went.

Preet Bharara:

And in particular, the meeting with Putin, did you have a view as to whether or not, and as a journalist, would you have had a preference for a joint press conference with Biden and Putin? Does it not matter? Is it something that is up to the individual politicians and so who cares?

Yamiche Alcindor:

It’s a great question. I honestly hadn’t really thought about it. I mean, I think that the point of it all is that they get to, that journalists get their questions in and that we get to push and press politicians and leaders. And so I think that if that was the goal, then it was accomplished, so maybe it would have also been accomplished in a joint press conference, but does Rachel Scott get to push back and have a follow-up and be one of the few American journalists embedded if Putin is in there with President Biden? No. So that moment doesn’t happen. So I think that that’s really powerful.

Yamiche Alcindor:

I think it’s great that I was able to get three questions into the president and to get him to really, and I think that we also got the president, that’s President Biden, responding directly to President Putin. So I think that that was still accomplished. It was really important to me to get a question in about whether or not President Biden felt it was appropriate for President Putin to be comparing the human rights violations in Russia to January 6 and invoking the name of Black Lives Matter.

Yamiche Alcindor:

Mr. President, when President Putin was questioned today about human rights, he said, the reason why he’s cracking down on opposition leaders is because he doesn’t want something like January 6 to happen in Russia. And he also said he doesn’t want to see groups formed like Black Lives Matter. What’s your response to that, please? So I think that the goals were coming accomplished.

Preet Bharara:

Wait. So I was about to ask you about that. What did you think of Putin’s comparisons to January 6th and Black Lives Matter?

Yamiche Alcindor:

So I’m a journalist, so I am not here to really give my opinion.

Preet Bharara:

You don’t have a view. All right. But you have a view, but you don’t think it’s appropriate to give it?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I don’t think that’s the role of journalists.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah, I get it. Do you have a sense of how Putin and his people thought the meeting went? Were they disappointed or did they get some limited amount of success on their terms also?

Yamiche Alcindor:

So I’ll say I haven’t talked to anyone in Putin’s administration, but I will say just in watching what you saw from President Putin is what he has always done, which is he has always done this whataboutism when pushed on human rights, when pushed on the fate of Alexei Navalny. And the fact that he kept on going and kept on thinking questions, it seemed as though he had some real objectives that were met.

Yamiche Alcindor:

And I can’t tell whether or not they thought it was a good idea to put them in front of a bunch of American journalists who would ask them questions like, what are you so afraid of? I don’t know what that is. It would be great to get some reporting on that, especially from some international journalists, because I am really, really interested to see what do they think about the fact that Rachel got that question in? And what does that mean for him? Because I think in some ways, it could be seen as embarrassing for him, but I think maybe in some ways, it could be seen as the press being disrespectful. So I’m not sure how it’s playing out in his administration.

Preet Bharara:

You were in Helsinki, correct?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I was in the room.

Preet Bharara:

The room where it happens?

Yamiche Alcindor:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

And the Helsinki trip when President Trump among other things appeared to take the word of Putin over his own intelligence agencies. And there was a weird back and forth about Trump believing Putin didn’t have anything to do with election interference.

Donald Trump:

People came to me, Dan Coats came to me, and some others. They said they think it’s Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it’s not Russia. I will say this, I don’t see any reason why it would be.

Preet Bharara:

How do you compare Helsinki to Geneva just in terms of feel of the room?

Yamiche Alcindor:

I mean, it was completely different. I think Former President Trump and President Putin’s press conference in 2018 was shocking to the system. I remember gasping at because you would never really heard an American president say, we take the word of someone who is a human rights violator for all intents and purposes, who has it seems killed a number of his political opponents, and literally tried to attack the US elections. You’ve never seen a US president, at least in my lifetime, take the word of that person over US intelligence agencies. And not just one, like multiple, it was like 17 US intelligence agencies, something like 17.

Yamiche Alcindor:

So I just think it was really, really shocking. And I remember talking to administration officials after the fact and they were cringing, they were trying to come up with ways to defend the president, but you could tell that they hadn’t even gotten their talking points together. And it was just so shocking. So that was completely different from President Biden’s press conference, where we were trying to obviously dig for things and get a sense of what was going to come out of this and how he was going to measure success. But there wasn’t I think moment where you thought, oh my God, he’s taking the word of Putin over his own government.

Preet Bharara:

And a completely different view from the aides of the current president after Geneva.

Yamiche Alcindor:

I would say, I mean, the White House aides, 95% of them when they were in the Trump administration, I don’t think you were going to talk to them on the record. They would back the president up. So there was a sense, I would say that they still backed President Trump up and figured out a way to defend. We think of Kellyanne Conway and so many others. Of course, on background, some of them were definitely not always as supportive. But I think from, I mean, so I think there’s that. So they weren’t, of course, as I think, confident sounding as the Biden administration aides were because I feel like President Biden laid out exactly what he wanted to do before he got to the meeting. And then you could ask them exactly what he accomplished after the meeting.

Preet Bharara:

You commented on Twitter as have others about the fact that the Putin-Biden meeting was expected to be four to five hours. And it was not nearly that long. Do you make anything out of that?

Yamiche Alcindor:

In some ways, lean on what the president said, which is after two hours, they looked at each other and said, what’s next?

Preet Bharara:

What’s the next, right?

Yamiche Alcindor:

We’ve all been in a meeting. Right. We’ve all been in a meeting that could have been an email. So in some ways, it feels like both men came there, they were concise, they were efficient and they didn’t have time to waste. And they came there, they did what they needed to do, and then they left.

Preet Bharara:

Yamiche Alcindor, thank you for your service. Congratulations on the new assignment at Washington Week. And thanks for coming on the show.

Yamiche Alcindor:

Thank you so much.

Preet Bharara:

My conversation with Yamiche Alcindor continues for members of the CAFE Insider community. To try out the membership free for two weeks, head to cafe.com/insider. Again, that’s cafe.com/insider. Yeah. So I want to end the show this week by talking about a very interesting, impactful and meaningful dinner I had two weeks ago. Many of you may know about it, but I thought I’d give you a recap and tell people who maybe did not hear about it what the dinner was all about.

Preet Bharara:

But before I talk about the dinner, we should go back in time where the story begins. And the story begins with a very ill-considered awful tweet by a gentleman by the name of Tom Nichols, who back in 2019 tweeted in response to someone asking for bad food takes on Twitter, Tom Nichols posted, I think Indian food is terrible and we pretend it isn’t. So every time I read that, I shake my head. It’s a terrible tweet. It’s a terrible sentiment. He’s not just saying in that tweet, I don’t like Indian food, although I think that’s what he meant to say only. He’s suggesting that a billion people and more pretend they like it and they don’t. So it was very insulting to a lot of people. Tom Nichols is a kind of a curmudgeon of a guy. He’s a smart man, an academic and a conservative who doesn’t like Donald Trump. So I applaud him for that.

Preet Bharara:

And in the aftermath of posting that tweet, he heard it from all sides people who are of Indian origin, people not of Indian origin who like Indian food and people generally who didn’t understand the ridiculousness of his sentiment. So there was a firestorm about it on social media. And I joined in by criticizing Tom Nichols, somewhat good-naturedly. But then I also reached out to him privately and suggested a year and a half ago that next time he was in New York, maybe I could change his mind, persuade him to be more open-minded about the cuisine of the country of my birth, because surely, there’s something he would like in a cuisine that by the way, features multiple, multiple kinds of food from different regions and about a million dishes. So from time to time, we would interact with each other, then COVID happened.

Preet Bharara:

And as we started to come out of the corona virus, I reached out to Tom a couple of months ago, and I said, we still have to have that dinner. And eventually, he said he would come to New York and we would have dinner. So I was very excited about this dinner I picked one of the great Indian restaurants in New York on 20th street called Sona, that features a mix of traditional Indian food and also more cutting-edge food. And I began to think about the strategy that I would employ to persuade Tom Nichols, because as you may know, I’m a competitive guy and I’d like to succeed, especially where other people have failed. So I felt some amount of pressure to make sure that the dinner went okay. And then in earnest, Tom Nichols would have his mind changed at least somewhat.

Preet Bharara:

And the day before we had dinner, I thought, another great thing we might do is maybe raise some money for a good cause. And I’ve been speaking for a number of weeks, as you know about the disaster that is COVID in India, where, although in this country, it’s getting better in the United States in most regions, it’s a ravaging disaster in India and lots and lots of people are suffering including members of my extended family and people who my dad went to school with. And so kind of on a lark, the day before dinner, we set up a GoFundMe, through which every dollar that we raised would go to a global nonprofit group called Indiaspora, which has been doing a fundraising drive for India and providing funds and resources, including to the WISH Foundation and some other institutions in India to help with COVID relief.

Preet Bharara:

So we’re going to have this dinner with this curmudgeonly white guy who says everyone hates Indian food, but along the way raise some funds for COVID relief in India. And our modest thought at the time was if we’re lucky and things go well and people pay attention, maybe we’d raise a couple of $1,000 for COVID relief in India. Much to my surprise, after tweeting about it a couple of times, and Tom tweeting about it, by the time we sat down for dinner before we had even ordered a bite or a drink, the GoFundMe had already raised $30,000 in COVID relief. So that was a promising beginning.

Preet Bharara:

You should know that in my competitiveness, I didn’t embark on this ordeal alone, I enlisted one of the owners of the restaurant, Maneesh, who had a consultation with the chef himself, understanding this was an important project that we had to change Tom Nichols mind. And so people have asked what the strategy was for the evening. And along the way, some people suggested that we should ply Tom with the most spicy dishes. We should give him vindaloo, we should make his mouth explode. That went against my strategy. I’m a conciliatory person and I wanted to succeed here. And so my thinking was that over the years, Tom had probably been taking the Indian restaurants. And your palette is your palette. There are Indian dishes that I don’t like too. There are Italian dishes that I love and some that I don’t love. Same is true in any cuisine.

Preet Bharara:

And by happenstance, perhaps Tom had only had a certain kind of food. It was clear to me that he can’t really handle spicy food. Not much you can do about that. That happens sometimes. And it also seemed apparent that he has some aversion to some ingredient in curry. Now there’s a lot of curry in Indian food, and I love curry and it’s maybe one of my favorite things when it comes to Indian cuisine, but there are many other things too.

Preet Bharara:

So I thought we’d try curry, we would keep things not very spicy in consultation with the chef and we would order a lot of things. I think we ordered enough food for about seven people, even though there were just two of us to see what he would like and what he might not like. So it began well enough. We ordered at first classic street Indian food, depending on where you’re from in India called Pani Puri or Gol Gappa which he thought was fine. He said he wouldn’t order it again, but it was fine. Did not offend him. And then we ordered other appetizers along way. And we kept ordering and ordering and we gave updates on social media. Tom, from time to time would take a video and post it on Twitter.

Tom Nichols:

All right. So we’re checking in and we’ve gotten through the appetizers in some small plates and I’m here with Preet.

Preet Bharara:

All right. So Tom, how’s it so far? I feel like you’ve enjoyed many, but not all of the dishes.

Tom Nichols:

Yeah. There was a kind of a hot finish to the shrimp that I had a little trouble with there.

Preet Bharara:

But you enjoyed many, just go into here. You enjoyed many of the dishes.

Tom Nichols:

Yes. We will check in with you. We’re about to order main courses and really chow down. So we will check in-

Preet Bharara:

We’ll be back.

Tom Nichols:

All right, we’ll see you in a bit.

Preet Bharara:

I would also take to Twitter, at one point I tweeted, So RadioFreeTom has to recharge his phone. While we are alone, I can report that he actively liked many dishes. Neutral on others. And no on really only one thing. And then I added, the breads are arriving. The breads by the way are very unoffensive. We ordered chapati and naan and paratha. And I think he liked all of those too. And then came the moment of truth. Tom tweeted at 10:03 PM, we have a winner. The first thing I would order again and could even imagine having a craving for at some point, lamb biryani. Curse you, Preet Bharara. Who doesn’t like a good lamb biryani? At 12:57 AM, this was a late dinner, Tom tweeted. So to summarize the #IndianFoodSummit, I have gone from who could like this to, if you guys want to go out for Indian tonight, I’m good with that because I know there’s stuff I’d like. For a provincial guy like me, that’s a big change. Kudos to chef Hari and Preet Bharara.

Tom Nichols:

I knew that when I insulted the cuisine of a billion people, there would be a day of reckoning. And that day has arrived.

Preet Bharara:

It’s today. It’s today, Tom. That’s your real name. As Tom later wrote in a USA Today piece about our dinner, at one point during the meal, we pause to check the status of the GoFundMe. It was now over $50,000. And as he writes, “Preet, and I looked at each other in disbelief, but if people were going to keep donating, I was going to keep eating.” By the time we finished the dinner and went home, we had $75,000 in funds raised for COVID relief in India. As of this recording, we have raised, if you can believe it, $134,000 for COVID relief.

Preet Bharara:

To give you some sense of where that money can go and how much good it can do, Indiaspora is giving funds to the WISH Foundation. And with the money that we’ve raised, they will be able to build a full 10 bed center. In another partnership with the money we’ve raised, they will be able to provide more than 250,000 meals. In connection with a third partnership, Indiaspora will be providing direct $400 cash transfers to families who have lost primary breadwinners. All we did was have a meal and tweet about it and raised $134,000.

Preet Bharara:

So all in all, a pretty good night, pretty good conversation and a pretty good cause served. As Tom writes in his USA Today piece, “I began this adventure by offending a billion people. And when it was over, I learned about food, made new friends and helped in a small way to alleviate the suffering of people in another country. That’s a lot for one dinner. And while I had a tiny bit of heartburn in the morning, my actual heart, after a long spell of pessimism and concern felt pretty good.” Thanks to all of you for giving, thanks to all of you who followed along. And I hope it’s a small lesson that people who disagree with each other can come together, break bread, enjoy each other’s company that people can change their minds and along the way, do good things for other people. And a final note, it’s not too late to donate. If you’d like to, a link to the GoFundMe is in the show notes.

Preet Bharara:

Well, that’s it for this episode of Stay Tuned. Thanks again to my guest, Yamiche Alcindor. If you like what we do, rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners find the show. Send me your questions about news, politics and justice. Tweet them to me @PreetBharara with the hashtag #askpreet, or you can call and leave me a message at 669-247-7338, that’s 669-24 Preet, or you can send an email to staytuned@cafe.com. Stay Tuned is presented by CAFE Studios and the Vox Media Podcast Network. Your host is Preet Bharara. The Executive Producer is Tamara Sepper. The Senior Producer is Adam Waller. The Technical Director is David Tatasciore. The CAFE team is Matthew Billy, David Kurlander, Sam Ozer-Staton, Noah Azulai, Nat Weiner, Jake Kaplan, Jennifer Corn, Chris Boylan and Sean Walsh. Our music is by Andrew Dost. I’m Preet Bharara. Stay tuned.