Preet Bharara:

From CAFE and the Vox Media Podcast Network, welcome to stay tuned. I’m Preet Bharara.

Cori Bush:

We have to take the time to look at each person and just had mercy. Like this country is such a merciless place, is unbelievable to me, how we expect peace and harmony and justice and liberty for certain people, but then others don’t get the same respect.

Preet Bharara:

That’s Representative Cori Bush. She’s a Democratic Congresswoman, representing Missouri’s first district, which encompasses St. Louis. Her path to DC was one of activism. She helped organize the black lives matter protests in Ferguson, following the police shooting of Michael Brown in 2014. Before entering politics, Bush was a registered nurse and a pastor. In 2020, she unseated a 10 term incumbent in the democratic primary. In Congress, she’s quickly become a prominent progressive voice. She received national attention when she slept on the capital steps to fight for an extension of the eviction moratorium. It’s an issue that’s personal for Bush. Years earlier, after being evicted from her home as a young mother, she spent months living out of a Ford Explorer. We talk about her unique path to Congress and how it’s informed her approach to politics.

Preet Bharara:

We also have a candid conversation about policing in America. That’s coming up, stay tuned. Before we get to your questions, I want to flag for folks that a new addition of office hours is out. It explores law enforcement’s use of rap lyrics and videos in criminal proceedings. Tamara Sepper speaks with Andrea Dennis author of Rap on Trial, and Alex Spiro who is Jay-Z’s attorney. Check it out at cafe.com/office-hours. Now let’s get to your questions.

Preet Bharara:

This question comes in an email from Tom, who writes, “Dear Preet, in regard to attorney John Eastman withholding emails from the January 6th commission on the grounds of attorney client privilege, doesn’t the privilege belong to the alleged client and not to the attorney? I haven’t read anything about Trump actually asserting the privilege. Please explain how this works. Thanks.” So this is the ongoing controversy and litigation with the committee between members of the committee and one of Trump’s former lawyers who was actually legitimate lawyer, perhaps provided some attorney-client privileged advice and information, and they’re seeking various bits of correspondence from John Eastman. You’re absolutely right that the privilege belongs to the client and the client can wave it, but in this case, even if it’s true, that we don’t know publicly, that Trump has asserted attorney-client privilege over the John Eastman communications. He certainly hasn’t waved it.

Preet Bharara:

And we know from other comments by Trump himself, his lawyers, and by other submissions they made in court that Trump and company feel that they have very, very broad ability to restrict disclosure of communications. They have a broad definition of what falls within not just attorney-client privilege, but also executive privilege and deliberative process privilege. The general rule is that a lawyer cannot disclose information about his representation of a client without the express informed consent of that client. So, generally the Trump believes he has broad ability to protect information based on that privilege. And he has probably communicated that directly to John Eastman, which is why he’s taken the position that he has taken. And in the absence of a waiver, he really has no choice.

Preet Bharara:

But as we have talked about before on this show and on CAFE Insider, there are various theories by which the committee is seeking to pierce the attorney-client privilege. One of them is much of the advice given was political advice, not legal advice. And also, and more, I think disturbingly for Trump, they have taken the view that there is evidence that John Eastman and Donald Trump and others may have conspired to violate criminal statutes, which would allow them to get the documents pursuant to the crime fraud exception, which says just because you’re a lawyer, you and your client can’t commit crimes and then shield the evidence of your crimes from investigators. So we’ll see how that plays out.

Preet Bharara:

This question comes in an email from Mary who writes, “Do you think Biden and AG Garland have spoken privately and perhaps Biden doesn’t want Trump charged because he doesn’t want to have to pardon him. Prosecuting an ex-president could set a bad precedent and would be quite detrimental to the functioning of our country if it became a regular recurrence, looking forward to hearing your opinion on this.” So thanks for the question, Mary. I really think that, that’s unlikely verging on the impossible, Biden has made it very, very clear that in word, indeed, he intends to leave the justice department alone and not put a thumb on this scale. Like a certain former president might have with respect to prosecuting or not prosecuting particular people. I think a private conversation like that is not in Biden’s style, at least based on his public rhetoric and also is not in Merrick Garland style.

Preet Bharara:

I don’t think he would want to have such a meeting or receive such information. So, I don’t think they’ve had that conversation about not prosecuting Trump. And that’s true for another reason. Also, I don’t think it’s the case that Biden is worried about having to pardon Trump. I think he said publicly during the campaign and perhaps afterwards, that he doesn’t foresee a circumstance in which he would pardon Donald Trump.

Preet Bharara:

And by the way, I think that’s very wise and makes a lot of sense, not withstanding the issue that you raise about divisiveness in the country and the detrimental functioning of our country and democracy. If there was a prosecution of a former president or a pardon of that president, the example people point to is Richard Nixon. But I think it’s very different. Gerald Ford, pardon Richard Nixon after Nixon voluntarily left office, stopped being a politician. Didn’t threaten to come back to politics, expressed remorse and contrition. That is a far cry from what Donald Trump has done. So I don’t think there’s a part in the offing. I don’t think they’ve had a conversation, but it still remains to be seen what Merrick Garland and the justice department do with respect to Donald Trump.

Preet Bharara:

This question comes in an email from James who’s asked a very sort of provocative question. He asks, “Who is the one living person who you would most want to trade places with?” And that’s interesting. And I thought about that and I thought about people who are very famous or very talented and have done interesting things with their lives, different from what I have done, but my answer to you. And it’s an honest answer is no one, I want to trade places with. I love my life. I love my family. I love my friends. I love the career I’ve had.

Preet Bharara:

It’s a career that went better than any I could possibly have imagined when I was a younger person. Are there skills and talents I sometimes wish I had? Yeah. Do I wish I could dunk a basketball? Sure. Do I wish I could play credibly in a rock and roll band? Yes. So there’s things like that. But overall given the life I have and the relationships I have and what I get to do, I wouldn’t trade places with anyone in the world. And that includes the boss, Bruce Springsteen. Stay tuned. There’s more coming up after this.

Preet Bharara:

Hey folks, Preet here. I have a very exciting announcement. On Thursday evening, March 31st, we’re bringing stay tuned to New York city’s town hall for our first in person show since before the pandemic. Yes. I said in person, and I’ll be joined by two very special guests. Ben Stiller, the actor director, producer, and Goodwill ambassador for the UN refugee agency and Garry Kasparov the chess grand master. And one of the most insightful voices on Russia and Ukraine today. As always, I’ll answer audience questions and reflect on the latest news, making the headlines. You really don’t want to miss it. Join me, Ben, Garry, and your fellow fans by heading to cafe.com/events to get your tickets. That’s cafe.com/events. I really hope to see you there. When representative Cori Bush won her congressional seat in 2020, she made history. She unseated a 10 term incumbent and became the first black Congresswoman elected from the state of Missouri. Representative Cori Bush, thank you so much for making the time. It’s great to have you on the show.

Cori Bush:

Thank you for having me.

Preet Bharara:

So can we clear up something right off the bat.

Cori Bush:

Okay.

Preet Bharara:

Cori Bush, I take it. You have no relation to George W. Bush or his pops. Am I right?

Cori Bush:

I don’t believe I do. And let me just say that name has given me grief for such a long time.

Preet Bharara:

Did you get some Republican votes because low information voters on the Republican side thought that you were a Bush?

Cori Bush:

No, I think, what happened was-

Preet Bharara:

Or hurt you?

Cori Bush:

It hurt me. People were saying I’ll never vote for a Bush. And so that’s why I didn’t… And then when they saw my photo, they were like, oh.

Preet Bharara:

It’s so funny. It makes me think of the Republican conservative Senator from the south, John Kennedy, very different John Kennedy from the one that was in the Senate in the fifties, and then became president. But you’re sufficiently famous in your district now that everyone knows what kind of Bush you are?

Cori Bush:

Yes. People know what can kind of Bush I am now. I made a point to get the face out with the name.

Preet Bharara:

Right. So let me ask that question. What kind of Bush are you?

Cori Bush:

I guess the third time’s the charm on this, but I’m the Bush that is from my dad’s tree. My dad was someone who was very much about the people, boots to the ground, each one, reach one. And he’s still that person today. My dad outruns me, my dad out canvases me. He can knock doors like no one I have ever met.

Preet Bharara:

Is it something in the knock or in the frequency?

Cori Bush:

The frequency, and then how many doors he can get to and talk to people and have very in depth conversations, just the amount of time. He’s absolutely amazing. So I’ve learned so much from my dad.

Preet Bharara:

Did he encourage you to go into politics?

Cori Bush:

Absolutely not. My dad was the opposite. He was the one who felt like I don’t want you to be the sacrificial lamb. I don’t want you to have to go through things that I went through, just trying to help people. And you have to deal with a lot of corruption and greed. So no, he didn’t encourage me at all. As a matter of fact, when I turned 18, around 18, I told my dad, I would never go into politics just because I watched him give so much of himself and I just saw him hurt a lot. And so no, he was like, yay, you’re going to be a nurse. And that’s what he saw for me.

Preet Bharara:

So we’ve established already minutes into the interview that you’re a flip flopper. You said you were never running for office and here you are.

Cori Bush:

Yes, I am here. Yes.

Preet Bharara:

From your congressional, which office building are you in again?

Cori Bush:

I’m in Cannon.

Preet Bharara:

In the Cannon office building going back on your promise to your dad at 18.

Cori Bush:

Yes. I went all the way back. I went way back because I not only ran for office, but I’m seated in Congress now.

Preet Bharara:

You are indeed. Congratulations on that. So you’ve had so many varied experiences more interesting than I think anybody that I can think of, that I’ve interviewed. You were at various times, a nurse, a pastor, and a teacher and other things too. Which of those vocations is the best preparation for Congress?

Cori Bush:

They all have a purpose. I think that it was kind of all kind of equal, because being the pastor, I was able to counsel people and talk to them, hear about the deep things that they might not tell others and be able to give them advice on how to help be whole, and then also help them with resources to be able to get help. As the nurse I was working directly with people on the medical issues, but also on just wraparound services, how to help their home lives. But I got to see so many people die due to lack of healthcare.

Cori Bush:

And then as the pre-kindergarten teacher and the worker in the childcare center, I was able to help teach children. And I saw what happens when we provide a safe place and we provide nourishment and how those children, how they end up growing. And a lot of those students came back to me later, just to tell me, oh, I’m this now, or this is what I did. I remember when you taught me this, but I would say mostly it was my activism in Ferguson that really pushed and helped me to become who I am today.

Preet Bharara:

When Michael Brown was killed?

Cori Bush:

Absolutely. When Michael Brown was killed. Yes.

Preet Bharara:

Did you have former students work on your campaigns?

Cori Bush:

I had one who worked on one of my campaigns for a little while. He had just turned 18 and I couldn’t believe it. I’m like my, you were four the last time I saw you and now you’re 18. Yeah. And he went into his major in college, as political science.

Preet Bharara:

So the other thing that obviously is important in your background and causes you to understand adversity more than almost anyone else in Congress is that you dealt with poverty, you dealt with eviction personally.

Cori Bush:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

And you’ve now famously lived in your car with your family in a Ford Explorer. And it’s hard to get your head around that. Can you just describe what that was like, what the logistics were and how you felt about it?

Cori Bush:

Yeah. So never set out to live in the car. Didn’t really think that it could ever happen. And it just kind of happened one day. It was like, we have to go, we had a vehicle. So, we’ll stay the night in the vehicle and figure out where we’ll go tomorrow. And tomorrow turned into the next day that was the next day. And it was just a matter of every day trying to figure out where, if we could go in and sleep in someone’s home, there were quite a few nights where we were able to, but it was come in late at night and then be out by six or seven in the morning kind of thing.

Cori Bush:

So I would take that opportunity to stay up and try to iron as many outfits as I could for work, try to get the kids cleaned up as best I could. So it was just that, it was hard. It was really hard because we had to keep moving the vehicle around the city of St. Louis, because we didn’t want the police to stop us. If a car is parked in front of someone’s home, then they’re wondering like, who is this?

Preet Bharara:

Especially when it’s a family sleeping in it.

Cori Bush:

When it’s a family. Right. And so we would move, we would sit there until we felt, like maybe people were looking or you could see people looking out the windows or whatever, so we would move. So that was a constant thing. So we would have, you couldn’t really sleep. Then it was cold. Even if it was warm during the day, it was cold at night. We would have to turn the car on and off trying not to waste gas, but then also trying to stay warm, trying not to have carbon monoxide poisoning, it was just a lot and the children were babies. I will never forget what that was like and just that feeling of being unsafe. But I remember also feeling like we cannot go into a shelter because we will take space from someone who doesn’t at least have a vehicle.

Preet Bharara:

Did you have a debate about that with your husband or you both agreed not to go to a shelter?

Cori Bush:

No. There was no debate at all. We both agreed.

Preet Bharara:

When you were going through this period of time, living in your car on some days, did you feel sort of resigned? Did you feel resolved to get yourself out of that situation? Like what were your emotions day to day?

Cori Bush:

It was just survive today. It was just, what is today? What does today bring? And then you live long enough for the lights to come on outside again and okay. So now I have to deal with whatever today brings and that literally was how we got through. It wasn’t thinking about next week or the week after it was like right now, today in this moment, what do we need to do. During that time though, I was still working a full-time job. And so I, so-

Preet Bharara:

What was your job then?

Cori Bush:

I was working in the childcare center. So still making just a little over minimum wage, but I had been there for years. So I think at this point I might have been making $9 an hour or something. And so I just… We just saved up. I saved up my checks, but that was how we got through, one thing that was difficult was, you couldn’t sit in the car. Like we could go to a food pantry to get food, but where are we putting the food? And then how are we keeping it? And then how are we going to cook the food from a car? So everything was mostly, it was a lot of like, if we’re eating, we’re buying out food or we had food, that was just something that we didn’t have to, that had a shelf life. There wasn’t a can opener unless we got, picked up the little handy one.

Cori Bush:

So it was just a lot of that, but I will say that, there was some joy in it. The joy in it was that my children were still safe. Knowing that the police didn’t take my kids from me today, that I could turn around and look in the backseat, look at the back area of the vehicle and my children were there sleeping. They didn’t know, my kids, they were so small. They didn’t know, the trauma that we were living through and what the day to day life was like.

Preet Bharara:

Do you tell… Have you told them about it in detail and how do they think about it now that they’re older?

Cori Bush:

Not in detail. Actually no, because I spent so much time, even after we first moved into a hotel, one of those extended state hotels is how we got out of the car. And then we finally moved into a home. But since then, I got a divorce and so it was just still a lot of survival. So I never really went back and just talked to them about what those days were like, they know what happened. We talked about that, but I never really just walk through it because we dealt with so many other issues as time went on.

Preet Bharara:

Other than maybe a few fellow members of Congress who have spent nights in their yacht, is there anyone of your colleagues that you’re aware of slept in a car?

Cori Bush:

No.

Preet Bharara:

You haven’t taken a survey I guess, but I think we would know about it.

Cori Bush:

Yeah. No one has said.

Preet Bharara:

That would be in the bio, I think. Do you think that people in Congress and otherwise who have always been privileged and always had money and always had means, and always had a roof over their head, are there people like that who can truly empathize and understand the plight of people who’ve gone through adversity or not?

Cori Bush:

If they choose to, you can dig deep and dig into the work, trying to understand, trying to learn you absolutely can, but it’s a matter of choice. If someone who chooses to go spend time at a shelter where our unhoused community members, where they’re living that spends real time, not just the photo op but goes and does that work, they can learn that. They can get to the point to where they have this understanding. It may not be from the standpoint of someone who’s lived it, but if they spend the time, if they dedicate themselves to that work, if they avail themselves and open up to listening to hear, absolutely, they can advocate in a major way. And that’s what we need. We need people who are in rooms that I cannot get into. We need people who have networks that are full of people that I will never meet. That’s what we need, because those are the folks that can help push other policy makers. They’re the ones that can open doors for some of these organizations that need the help.

Preet Bharara:

So I want to talk about your entry into politics after saying that you didn’t want to do it and your father discouraged you.

Cori Bush:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

It was an uphill battle. You didn’t run for an open seat.

Cori Bush:

No.

Preet Bharara:

You ran in a primary more than once.

Cori Bush:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

Against an incumbent, well known member of a political family, a black Congressman named Lacy Clay. How uphill a battle was that?

Cori Bush:

Oh, it was truly uphill both times that I ran against him. The first-

Preet Bharara:

You ran uphill both ways as the-

Cori Bush:

I’m trying to tell you it was, because people, I would hear so much, like why would a Democrat challenge another Democrat? Why are you as a black woman, challenging a black man? Why you don’t have any political experience? You don’t have any electoral experience. What is your degree in? What’s your education background? All of those things. Do you realize that a black woman, in Missouri running for a seat like this, like it just won’t happen? I heard so many things. People challenged my background as a nurse. You’re not an attorney. You can’t go to Congress. You’re a nurse. Like I heard… So it was just so many things.

Preet Bharara:

Do they know about the dentists?

Cori Bush:

Look dentists or the comedian, at the time. But none of those things mattered because you’re still talking about someone who was from a movement that affected the entire world and that people still didn’t quite understand this movement that I was a part of and am still a part of, to work to save black lives. So I think that, all of that played a part because it was just like, people treated me like at first, like I was not good enough. Like I was in the way, I was just making noise. Like I was not serious.

Preet Bharara:

Were those white people and black people, were they young people and old people, like, was there a difference in how people responded to you based on who they were?

Cori Bush:

Not, it was just kind of a mixed bag, really. It just depended, but some of it was more establishment. I would say that was probably more of the thread. It was people who were, would be considered mostly establishment Democrats, who felt that way. I didn’t have as much of a problem with the Republicans in my district. I didn’t have much of a problem with them. A lot of them were like, Hey, we’ll support you. We might not love your policies, but we think that you’re a cool person. So they gave their support.

Preet Bharara:

You’re a Bush after all.

Cori Bush:

No, I’m a Bush. We got to do that. I got to do that ancestry. No, but-

Preet Bharara:

Can’t be all bad. But so you ran the first time against Lacy Clay and you lost, what did you lose by?

Cori Bush:

Yes. So that was my second run. I ran against Lacy Clay first run I ran for US Senate actually. My second run I ran against Congressman Clay and 20 points. We were a 20 point difference.

Preet Bharara:

So that’s quite a bit. And you had all these people saying these things to you, but what did you do? You ran again?

Cori Bush:

Yes, I ran again.

Preet Bharara:

What was your thought process and your sort of disposition in deciding to run again?

Cori Bush:

So it was a lot, so after my very first race, a few weeks later, I was violently, sexually assaulted and I couldn’t, it knocked me off my square. Like I couldn’t work, I couldn’t eat. I couldn’t think, it was just a very tough time. And after a few months, when people came to me and asked me to run for that seat against Congressman Clay for the first time, I was thinking, Hey, I’m not back to work yet. I’m still in therapy. I can’t do this. But when I thought about, again, my son being the next hashtag of folks who lost their lives to police violence or my daughter or someone else I knew I couldn’t let that go. When I thought about because that was the mission the first time when I ran.

Cori Bush:

And so I thought about that and I thought about how often I went to court to try to get some type of justice or accountability after that very violent rape thought about how long my rape kit sat on the shelf. And I realized that I needed to make this run. And so, because I didn’t win, where did the mission go? It was a mission because I didn’t win. I did not meet the goal, which meant I did not fix what I said that I wanted to fix in our world. So I ran again and that was it. And so just… But we had a lot more support the second time because people knew that I was serious. They knew that, I was speaking about Medicare for all things like Medicare for all. And they were saying, oh, Medicare for all.

Cori Bush:

That’s like a unicorn, that’s not, that’s a fantasy. That’s something that we don’t need and could never happen. Oh, you keep saying black lives matter. And you keep doing all of this work on the ground as an activist, but no, but it’s not really going to go anywhere. But then what we saw when COVID hit so much change, when COVID hit, people were like, oh, maybe we shouldn’t have healthcare connected to job status. And then, George Floyd was murdered and Breonna Taylor and so many others, and we were in the streets again, fighting for black lives and fighting for accountability. And then people said, oh, well, we see that you, these were things that you were talking about for so long. And now we see why.

Preet Bharara:

So I was going to ask you if you thought that was the reason for the successful run after the failed run, because you changed your methods a little bit, or you changed the way you talked about things or you learned from your dad and knocked on more doors, or was it that the message that you were emitting and conveying becomes so much more relevant because of what was happening in the world, and it sounds like it’s a bit of both.

Cori Bush:

Yes, yes. The message was more relevant. And then also so many people just felt like we have seen you say and do the same things for years. And we believe that it’s time for this type of change.

Preet Bharara:

I want to talk about methods. We think of members of Congress, as you know, they speak a lot on the floor and in other forums, like podcasts now from time to time, but also, and they vote. But sometimes there’s a role for activism. And that I think is a view that you have. And again, famously you engaged in, I guess you would call it a sleep in on the capital steps, in connection with a movement to extend the eviction ban during COVID. Can you describe what that was like and why you thought that was important?

Cori Bush:

Oh, it was difficult, before the moment that I decided to stay out and sleep in on those steps, I didn’t have the thought to do it. But being out there, I felt like a lot of those feelings flooded back. Even though there were people around, it just really felt, I felt unsafe again. You’re open to all the elements you have to deal with whatever comes. There’s no place for you to go. And it rained while we were out there. So, no matter how many blankets you have, if it rains, the blankets are wet, you can’t cover yourself up and get warm, no matter how warm you… No matter what you do, you can’t get warm and you can’t get dry. So it was from hot… From really, really hot weather to cold, to rainy.

Cori Bush:

And I just remember at one point just feeling delirious, like I couldn’t, because I hadn’t slept, I hadn’t eaten much. I was tired. And I just, I couldn’t think I was getting confused and I just remembered all of the people. And I kept pushing because I said, I know I’m only going through this for a few days possibly. But what about those that would have to go through this and do go through this every single day, how dare I, give up because I’m tired.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. Well, you went through it yourself after having been evicted. So obviously there’s a line and an arc from your experience to your experience as a member of Congress.

Cori Bush:

Yes.

Preet Bharara:

What do you think is the biggest problem in the country? There’s a lot to choose from.

Cori Bush:

Yeah.

Preet Bharara:

Is it the fragility of our democracy? Is it racial inequality? Is it income inequality? Is it policing? Is it the war in Ukraine and how that might affect the world? Do you rank these things in your head as a member of Congress?

Cori Bush:

I don’t rank them when I think about the reason why I’m here, which is to stand up and speak up for the people of St. Louis in Missouri’s first district. I think about the… That’s always my first priority is what are the issues of our community and what do they see as their biggest issues. So I always go back to that and I feel like so much of what we have to endure is going… It’s starts with white supremacy automatically. It starts with white supremacy. So everything I feel is connected to that. So whether we’re talking about economic inequality, we talk about environmental injustice from police violence, to the fact that our unhoused community members are still sleeping on the ground. Everything that we deal with the disparities in healthcare, it all goes back to, there is this system that allows black people and other marginalized groups to continue to have to fight for their basic needs for their civil rights in this country.

Cori Bush:

And we just get to feel the, just, we just get the… Just all of it, we get to walk through every single day. And when I look at what’s happening in Ukraine, my work is to save lives. And as I look at what the community members in St Louis need, that’s the first thing is saving lives. So yes, we want to save lives in Ukraine. We want to save lives in every other place around the world. We want to save lives, Palestinian lives. We want to save Cameroonian lives. We want to save Haitian lives. We want to… So that’s what it’s about out because it’s not, there are atrocities happening all over our world.

Preet Bharara:

We’ll be right back with more of my conversation with representative Cori Bush after this. You mentioned Ukraine. And I should note for listeners that we’re recording this. We began recording around 11:00 AM on Wednesday, March 16th, just a little while after you and your colleagues in the Congress heard an address from president Zelenskyy of Ukraine.

Speaker 3:

This is a terror that Europe has not seen for 80 years. And we are asking for a reply for an answer to this terror from the whole world.

Preet Bharara:

And I started to ask you, but I want to save it for the actual interview. What was that like hearing from him?

Cori Bush:

Yeah. So sitting in that auditorium, the congressional auditorium, it was sad. It was sad because we listened to President Zelenskyy give this very impassioned speech. And he gave the speech from a bunker somewhere in his country. And he spoke about exactly where, well, what city he was in. But just listening to him, talk to us about wanting to save the lives of his people, the people of Ukraine. And we watched the video and part of that video was it showed how different areas of the country looked and then how it looked after those missiles hit it. We saw so many children crying and people just bodies. We always have to put humanity first. So I’m always going to go back to what do we need to do to save lives? And that’s what I was hearing from him.

Preet Bharara:

How do you think Joe Biden is doing in handling the Ukraine crisis?

Cori Bush:

I think that this is something that did not start with him, and it’s just something that he has to endure and he has to work through. I think those sanctions coming out with the sanctions, I am 100% for targeted sanctions for the murderous Putin regime, the Russian oligarchs, and corporate fossil fuel executives that profit off of human suffering. So that absolutely, I think that he’s done well with that. And I think that right now, looking at what is being asked of him, he’s being asked to… He’s been asked for this no fly zone. And the fact that he is talking with Congress, the fact that he, that right now, he has not made a decision on that I can understand.

Preet Bharara:

It’s a tough job. Do you have a view on whether the US and our allies should think about setting up a no fly zone, or is that a recipe for world war III?

Cori Bush:

It’s a recipe for world war III. And at this point we have to be thoughtful and we have to be deliberate to center humanity, not exacerbate harm. We have a responsibility to reduce harm, and that’s the standpoint that we have to take.

Preet Bharara:

So I want to get to this issue of sanctions. And you said very forthrightly that you support certain kinds of sanctions against Putin himself, against the regime, against the oligarchs. But you very pointedly also said that you don’t support broad base sanctions that hurt average Russians. And I understand that perspective and it’s an empathetic perspective. Can you elaborate on why you think that even in dire circumstances like we have now?

Cori Bush:

Yeah. So, because I believe that we have to be thoughtful enough to understand how the decisions that we make, how they will affect the people that have to live through them. No one up in the ivory tower, how the regular people of the regular everyday people in the country have to live, what will happen to them. And we can’t look back in five years and say, oh, well, maybe we made a mistake. We have to look at how the decisions we’re making right now will affect those lives. So for us, we should be using sanctions to incentivize a cease fire, or a withdrawal of Russian troops from Ukraine. That’s how we should be looking at it. Use the safe. If we’re going to have the sanctions, use them to incentivize actions from Russia, so that to withdraw. So that’s how we should be looking at this because, there has to be a clear process for diplomacy and deescalation.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. But what do you do if you got a guy like Putin, who’s not interested in diplomacy and how do you respond to the argument that, yeah, I think everybody wants sanctions that will ferment some diplomacy and deescalation, but that the narrow sanctions that you support just won’t do enough to alienate Putin from his own People.

Cori Bush:

First, it still has to go back to when we’re looking at the sanctions that we’re imposing. If we have to go back again and again, with more sanctions, like what we heard today with President Zelenskyy, he said, he’s asking for the US to sanction daily. If we have to continue to do that, but looking at how those are targeted, then we have to do what we have to do. Those broad sanctions, when we look at that, we act to reduce harm, economic sanctions and conditions towards peace have to… We have to make those go together. You marry the two.

Preet Bharara:

I want to ask you about NATO, the Democratic Socialist of America, the DSA, a couple of weeks ago, after the invasion, condemned the invasion, of course, by Putin, but also urges the United States to ‘withdraw from NATO and to end the imperialist expansionism that set the stage for this conflict”. Do you agree with that?

Cori Bush:

I haven’t looked at that. I can’t really respond to that.

Preet Bharara:

Do you think the United States should remain in NATO at the moment?

Cori Bush:

We have the responsibility, the US has a responsibility to hold the line where we are at this point right now.

Preet Bharara:

Okay. Can we talk about criminal justice reform?

Cori Bush:

Okay.

Preet Bharara:

That, as you said, was one of the things that catapulted you into your life of activism and becoming a member of Congress, explain to folks, although it should not take a lot of explanation because it’s been at the fore of our news for a very long time, especially recently explain to folks how you analyze the problem. What is the problem with our criminal justice system in your view? That’s a big question. Take your time.

Cori Bush:

It’s a huge question. I mean, there are a lot of problems, but first we have to be truthful about, that there are problems. We have to be truthful that the problems start with white supremacy in this country. And it’s because it is so ingrained into… To me, it’s in the thread of our society. So from everything from looking at, we can’t just look at policing. Policing is a big thing that I deal with, that I work in, like trying to make sure that there’s a justice and accountability in our policing system. But also what about our judges, our prosecutors, what’s happening as far as how on the federal level, when we’re looking at, what do we allow into our communities? Having militarized policing does that make our communities safer?

Cori Bush:

Do we make our communities safer by having so many people imprisoned in this country or should our work be to deescalate and to allow people back into their communities. One thing that we work a lot on this clemency, I wore a shirt that said 18,000 on it at the state of the union, because to highlight the issue, that there are 18,000 people right now who are waiting for a signature from the president to be able to be sent… To be able to go back home, to be back with their families. And we know that people prosper, that they do well after receiving clemency. There are so many issues with this system and we can’t look at it like, oh, there are just you bad apples here and there, I do not.

Cori Bush:

I do not ascribe to that theory of a few bad apples, because we don’t, as a nurse, we couldn’t have any bad apples working. Do you want to… You want a bad nurse that, that bad nurse continue to get to take care of patients? Does the bad surgeon continue to get to cut on people? Does the bad pilot continue to keep driving planes? No. So there is no such thing as a bad police officer or a bad prosecutor, those are people that should not be in those positions. The standards should be those that are doing the actual job.

Preet Bharara:

You mentioned clemency. And I wonder if you have a theory as to why maybe it’s obvious a theory as to why president generally and governors too, don’t use their power of clemency as often as they might. Is it just politics? And they think that it’ll hurt them in an election or is there some other reason?

Cori Bush:

Yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. It’ll hurt them in an election, explaining it to their base, the fear that, what if I’m wrong and that person goes home and does something else. But I feel like when we sign up, when we volunteer to run for these seats, we know that we have to make tough decisions and we have to think beyond what our base is going to say and do the right thing. We have to think beyond that donor, we have to… Those decisions have to be made. We have to prioritize humanity.

Cori Bush:

And if we look at everything from the standpoint of what if, well, what about every car that’s on the street? That car accidents happen every single day. What about every… Like there are so many things, what about every time someone purchases a firearm? People are able to do that. So where is the what ifs with those things? So people we have to take the time to look at each person and just add mercy. This country is such a merciless place. It’s unbelievable to me how we expect peace, and harmony, and justice, and liberty for certain people, but then others don’t get the same respect.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. Look, there’s a lot of fear. Some of it justified, some of it not depending on your perspective and what your experiences have been, but yeah, look, I’m of the view notwithstanding what my past, my own past has been, that the clemency of power should be used more and better. I mean, it was used very famously by the former president to help out a number of cronies and political allies. And that’s not what it was intended for. So, we’ll see if Joe Biden does more. Often, clemency petitions are granted later in the term to avoid the political consequence.

Preet Bharara:

Because it’s safer that way, particularly if you’re not going to run again, but we’ll see. So since we’re talking about criminal justice reform and policing representative, I have to ask you about this phrase that gets much to talked about much debated, sometimes misunderstood, sometimes deliberately used in a way to provoke, sometimes used in a way that is sophisticated and nuanced. And can you guess the phrase I’m talking about, I’ll say it, defund the police, so you have used that phrase and you don’t make apologies for using that phrase. Am I right?

Cori Bush:

None, zero. None.

Preet Bharara:

Now there are some people who do mean when they say defund the police that they mean abolition and the zeroing out of police budgets everywhere. And some of them will say, that’s an aspiration. We want to get to a point where we don’t need such police forces, and who doesn’t agree with that? I would say when I was a US attorney from time to time, in an ideal world, we don’t exist, right? In an ideal world, we do such a good job and society does such a good job preventing crime, that there are no criminals who need to be prosecuted. And there are other ways to deal with it where on the spectrum of defund the police proponents are you?

Cori Bush:

So that’s just a huge question because there are, when I think about, do we need, do we absolutely need in the long run? Do we need to have police? Do we need to have this policing system set up the way that it is? No. I think that there is a better way, but can I say that we are where I would love for us to be able to make that happen right now, we have there, there’s a lot of work that has to be done. I think that, when I think about how policing started with the slave patrols and thinking about where we are right now, when we know that we haven’t gone far from how policing started in this country.

Cori Bush:

The fact that this country as intelligent of a society as we claim to be why we haven’t figured out how not to kill black people with impunity in this country, a disproportionate rates, we haven’t figured out how not to racially profile black people and brown people in this country to the point to where two times, two and three times the rate of white community members in a community that is not even a black community.

Cori Bush:

We can’t seem to figure that out. And so if we feel like the way to fix it is to continue to throw money at it. And we’ve only seen that adding money to it does not fix the problem then why not do something different? So as far as the spectrum of where I am on, whether it’s abolition or something else, I feel like I’m still working through like what that could look like, but nothing, it is not off the table now.

Preet Bharara:

It’s hard to picture.

Cori Bush:

Well, I guess the thing is, it’s something that could happen. We just have to change the mindset of this country to think that the way that you, that we are supposed to control people, this thinking that people are first, especially people who are melanated, that we are first violent or first criminals, and feeling like the way to solve problems is with bullets or some type of harm.

Preet Bharara:

Right. But you said some months ago and then maybe your view is changing and will continue to change, that’s a good thing that we all do. And I don’t know, in what context this was, I think it was an interview. You said, “You call 911. They will still be the same as what it is now. If you have violence happening and you call the police, they will still show up.”

Cori Bush:

Yes, that is… Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. Okay.

Cori Bush:

This is yes. Because of the… This is speaking about the bill that we have, the people’s response act. Because one thing that people have said is, oh, no one’s going to show up at your home. You call the police. No, one’s going to show up. You’ll be in crisis and there will be no one there, which is 100% wrong. It is what we are talking. Even if, let’s just say, even if people wanted to make this… Like, okay, this is abolishing the police. If someone needs help, you don’t think that we would put in place, if police departments were abolished, like if that’s where this thing went, you don’t think that there would be something in place so that people would have the safety that they need and have the care that they need, absolutely.

Cori Bush:

Like we’re not talking about that’s the one thing that, people think that those that are working on these issues are not thoughtful, that are not trying to take care of the communities. Our work is to take care of the communities better than what we have now. So that is not the thing. But even as we’re talking about my legislation, you call 911, someone will answer your call. But what we are saying is that there will be, instead of a police officer showing up, if you’re calling in about a mental health crisis, we’ll have a mental health expert show up to your home. We’re saying that this allows the police to not go out on calls that could be handled by someone who’s skilled to take care of them. So that the police can go out on the calls that they need to go out on. So that would be those calls where something that is violent, that is happening or something like that. That’s the difference.

Preet Bharara:

Yeah. And that’s a subset of calls, but some people say about this debate, there’s a lot of semantics and there’s a lot of rhetoric and people don’t always know what the other person is meaning by that, so for example, suppose it’s not a mental health, 911 call, but it’s a 911 call says, it’s an armed man in my house trying to rob my house. And someone shows up whether we’re in an abolition state of the universe or not, you can choose to call that person whatever you want. But if that person is showing up armed as a public safety person in response to an armed robbery, burglary attempt, that’s a police officer, whether you call that person something else or not, right?

Cori Bush:

Regardless of what you call that person, whether we’re talking about 10 years or 15, 30 years in the future or now if someone needs help, that would be the person to show up. What we’re saying is have the person that is adequately and appropriately trained to show up to your issue. That’s what we’re saying. And right now we cannot look at regular just policing as it is, as it stands to be, that we know that, that person that’s going to show up in our situation is the best person for the job. And reason why I say that is because we have situations where people call for help and they end up being the one hurt. And it’s not a thing where it’s like an anomaly that this happens. This happens all the time in this country where people are continuously hurt by police.

Cori Bush:

When we look at the fact that in 2021, there were only 15 days in the whole year, 15, where police did not kill someone, 15 out of 365. So something has to change and the fact that people get so up in arms over a slogan, but they don’t get up in arms about the death of the murder of black people, the killing of black and brown people and native American people and are disabled community members and unhoused community members, people care more about a slogan. It tells you that they are uncomfortable with actually addressing the problem. They care more about looking good and sounding politically correct than they care about actually saving lives. I could care less about what you think about me, just don’t touch my people.

Preet Bharara:

There are people who do at least say they care about both, and I’m not talking about Republicans and Right-wing folks, but assertively, progressive members of the Democratic caucus is what you’re saying about folks not caring about one thing and just want to look good. Does that apply to Congressman Clyburn?

Cori Bush:

It applies to anyone who feels that this slogan holds more weight than actually saving lives. Because the thing is this, what we have to look at is do we do more work to actually save the lives, or we do more work complaining about a slogan? And you don’t ever have to say the slogan. There is no place where anybody ever has to say the slogan. You never have to say the slogan. If I say, that’s one person, but the rest of the people in this country don’t have to say the slogan. They can choose to just do it. How about just reallocate? How about just divest? How, whatever word you want to use, just do it and never say the slogan.

Preet Bharara:

You know, who said the slogan and you reacted to it. And I want to have you react again for our listeners, Joe Biden in the state of the union.

Joe Biden:

We should all agree, the answer is not to defund the police. It’s to fund the police.

Cori Bush:

That’s Joe Biden. That’s the president. He made that statement, that’s how he feels, when he included that though in the state of the union, I just wondered why he didn’t take that moment to unify his own party, rather than continue to divide us, like why he chose to provide Republicans an endorsement instead of members of his own party. I want to see a commitment to racial equity and building an anti-racist society. So I want to hear that direct mention to the issues that most affect our black communities. And that’s not what happened.

Preet Bharara:

I only have you for a few more minutes. So I wanted to change gears a little bit and ask you about something interesting that’s not getting as much attention given the war in Ukraine and COVID and other things, but it’s a great consequence. And I think very important. And I wonder what your reaction is to the fact that, in just a few days, we’re going to have a Supreme court confirmation hearing for the first black woman appointed to that court, Ketanji Brown Jackson. And one of my questions is, how do you feel about that? As a member of Congress, as a black woman, citizen of the United States, but then also, how do you feel about the way that she has been attacked by some folks, and I don’t know if you saw this, it’s not the biggest thing in the history of the world, but some talk show guy whose name I don’t want to mention, had the audacity to say about Judge Brown Jackson. Like she should reveal her LSAT scores.

Cori Bush:

Right.

Preet Bharara:

Did you see that or hear that?

Cori Bush:

I didn’t see it, but I heard about it.

Preet Bharara:

Does that make you angry?

Cori Bush:

It reminds me of what I went through. It reminds me of being the only black woman in a room running for a seat and people abusing that, that the main thing was what’s your education background and who’s taking care of your kids while you’re here. And so it just reminds me of that, but that question isn’t asked of others. So when I say I am elated that President Biden nominated Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson for this go to seat. I couldn’t be more happy, more proud when I see her. And I listen to her and I think about her background as a public defender, and working for our most marginalized communities, she chose that she signed up for that work. And knowing that, that will be what helps to inform her work as someone on the Supreme court, knowing that as a Supreme court justice, knowing that she cares about, she’s someone who cares about civil rights, she’s someone who cares about worker protections.

Cori Bush:

This is what we need right now. It’s sad that it 233 years of black… We couldn’t get a black woman-

Preet Bharara:

It’s a long time.

Cori Bush:

…to be nominated, but now we are here and we support her. So for those that are trying to attack her, know that even though there are no black women in the US Senate, that there are black women in the US house, and we are standing firm behind her and the congressional black caucus has also made it public that they will be doing… That we will be doing whatever we can to stand beside her and to help how we can.

Preet Bharara:

Representative Cori Bush, thank you for being on the show. Thank you for your service and best of luck to you.

Cori Bush:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Preet Bharara:

My conversation with representative Cori Bush continues from members of the CAFE Insider community. To try out the membership for just $1 for a month. Head to cafe.com/insider. Again, that’s cafe.com/insider.

Preet Bharara:

I want to end the show this week talking about journalism. We’ve been hearing a lot about the dangers and perils that face journalists, particularly those who are on the front of a war as in Ukraine. And we have lost members of the media, Intrepid journalists, photo journalists to the war. They’ve literally been killed in the line of duty and we should honor them and we should respect them. And it’s in that context, I want to talk about a new film that you may not have heard of that celebrates journalists in a different context. The film is called Writing with Fire, and I’m proud to say my friend and former colleague Anurima Bhargava, who used to work at the justice department is the co-executive producer for the film. It comes from directors Rintu Thomas, and Sushmit Ghosh. It is the first Hindi language, Indian feature documentary ever nominated for an Academy Award for best documentary feature.

Preet Bharara:

And it’s already one dozens of other awards, including two at Sundance in 2021, the film follows the amazing journalists behind India’s only newspaper run by Dalit women. You may not know what a Dalit is. Dalit’s in India are considered the lowest cast, so low that they have often been referred to historically as untouchables. They’re literally the most discriminated against population in all of India. As one of the women says in the movie, “I carry my cast identity like a weight on my back.” I got to watch Writing with Fire at a screening in Manhattan this past Tuesday night. And it did not disappoint. It’s story after story about these proud and courageous women who have so much going against them to put out a product, a newspaper that covers things that are going on that are difficult to cover. And I thought to myself, as I was watching the film, how hard it was to tell their stories, how hard it was to get sources, how hard it was to be taken seriously with all that cast nonsense in the way, how difficult it was to have an impact, but they did.

Preet Bharara:

And they do. And as you see in the film, these journalists, they got roads built. They got crops irrigated, they got electricity delivered. These Dalit women, these so-called untouchables, they exposed illegal mining. They held politicians accountable, they got alleged rapists arrested. Their dreams were to be strong reporters. And those dreams were realized. It’s a truly inspiring underdog story. The Washington post has called it the most inspiring journalism movie maybe ever, and an essential portrait of the fight for press freedom. The post also wrote, “Writing with Fire reminds us that there are always people who despite incredible odds will choose to do this work.” So I offer my congratulations to the entire team who worked on this incredible film and to my friend Anurima. If you get the chance to see Writing with Fire, do yourself a favor, go see it and good luck at the Oscars. Well, that’s it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks again to my guest representative, Cori Bush.

Preet Bharara:

If you like what we do, rate and review the show on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen, every positive review helps new listeners find the show. Send me your questions about news, politics and justice. Tweet them to me @preetbharara with the hashtag askpreet or you can call and leave me a message at 669-247-7338 that’s 66924 Preet or you can send an email to letters@cafe.com. Stay tuned is presented by CAFE and the Vox media podcast network. The executive producer is Tamara Sepper, the technical director who’s David Tatasciore. The senior producers are Adam Waller and Matthew Billy, and the CAFE team is David Kurlander, Sam Ozer-Staton, Noa Azulai Nat Weiner, Jake Kaplan, Chris Boylan, Sean Walsh, and Namita Shah. Our music is by Andrew Doss. I’m your host Preet Bharara, stay tuned.